D&D 5E "The so-called '5-Minute Workday' is Something I've Seen Regularly Playing 5E D&D" (a poll)

[Cruentus]

A few hundred players like this?

Wow. I've literally never seen behavior remotely like this when I DM. Not even at cons when I'm a player. You must have some serious bad luck.

One player in our group is like that. Never wants to be injured, always has to be at peak efficiency, doesn’t care a whit about the story, wants the strongest PC he can build, multiclass, or magic item/spell into. Doesn’t want challenge, just fight stuff and win.

Its annoying to play alongside, and to DM. And it been going on for 40 years..

In the last game I DM’d, the 5 minute workday was a thing. The players never went into a fight unless they were sure they could win, and if they weren’t sure, they made sure they were full on HP, spells, etc. ready to nova. There are only so many times you can interrupt rests, or set ticking clocks, or whatever.

 

[tetrasodium]

What exactly is it that they want their characters to do? Just stand around and bask in their their-character-ness? Do they not want to do anything with these characters? Cause if they just want to sit around talking in character, I'm not sure why you need to show up.

Alright. Doesn't sound like something a rules structure can address. Forget the 5-minute workday, the individuals you describe sound like they aren't interacting with the day at all, or place, or story. It's bizarre, frustrating, and more than a little puzzling, but honestly it sounds so far afield that in seems a mile past the thread topic.

Many Isekai light novels/manga/anime is a good mirror to view it in where often they are little more than a generic main character with no ties or concerns playing out an author/viewer self insert power fantasy to save the world or whatever. The vast majority of protagonists in isekai could be swapped with little or no changes needed in the story, the same goes for the PCs of these players. The system is designed so their PC doesn't need anything from the world but something that needs killing to put them on the same footing as most isekai main characters & they act that way as a result.

 

[iserith]

As someone who does use torches, rations, and encumbrance, it’s not that I enjoy the bookkeeping. It’s that I tolerate the bookkeeping because it’s necessary to enable the kind of attrition-based challenge I like my games to have. Also, there are spells and features that can get around these things, which actually become useful in games that track them.

Totally agree. I used to not like tracking them for likely the same reasons other posters have mentioned, but I found I was just coming at it from the wrong angle. I think it took playing Dark Dungeon to really make me see it as an important part of certain game structures and that it actually increased the tension to be ticking off torches and oil the deeper we got into the dungeon. Combined with encumbrance, it means part of the game is making choices about how much you can bring into a dungeon and how much you can take out.

What I was probably objecting to up until that realization was tracking resources for no good purpose. It actually was just pointless bookkeeping because it never really mattered enough to be worth the upkeep. It was not a source of fun tension and or meaningful decisions both before and during the delve. I'm actually running games for a group now who has just arrived at this realization by playing in one of my delves. They are having a blast with the challenge it presents and becoming a lot more creative with equipment.

So if I'm running primarily dungeons, we are definitely doing close tracking of these sorts of resources. It's part of that experience. If I'm running a plot-based game like from a published module, then we don't.

 

[ad_hoc]

Part of the definition of adventure is that there is risk.

Games and D&D in particular are great at exposing people to risk while also being safe.

I also don't understand the idea of not having risk as part of the game.

If there is no risk then it literally isn't D&D.

 

[Luceilia]

I'll agree that character death is kind of a boring risk, sure. There are plenty of more fun ones to incorporate into the game.

But it's still the most common one in most D&D games. And if the response to any of that kind of risk is "nope, I'm out..." maybe the better option is to have a talk with the DM about what you actually want out of the game?

As always, the BEST option is for the players and DM to all be on the same page as to what they actually want out of the play experience.

So, speaking as someone whose focus as a player in RPGs is maximum immersion resonance with my character (speaking in particular to the segment of the game where resurrection isn't exactly on the table)...

I don't want to die, and I don't want to be numbed to death (that of myself or of a beloved party member.)

As a player outside of my character headspace, I do want some minor threat of death to enhance the Experience, but I want it very low. Like... Maybe 1-2% total cumulative chance (not chance per adventure or per level) from starting level up to the point resurrection becomes available.

Don't actually have 5E experience yet, from what I've heard it delivers on the minimal threat of death but does so in a manner that can be a little jarring? (Death save popcorning)

 

[Luceilia]

Using the rules of the game to defeat the spirit of the game. The spirit being high risk, high reward fantasy action-adventure, risking life and limb, etc.

Can you elaborate on where this is stated to be the Spirit of the Game?

I know personally I don't want High Risk. That's so stressful, dancing on the edge of a knife makes for a great story, but a terrifying ulcer causing disaster of an experience if it keeps happening.

Like, obviously I would forgive a GM who accidently gave us an encounter with bad (less than 90%) odds and no clear means to get out of it, but I would absolutely walk away from a game that was deliberately putting me on the tightropes.

 

[tetrasodium]

Can you elaborate on where this is stated to be the Spirit of the Game?

I know personally I don't want High Risk. That's so stressful, dancing on the edge of a knife makes for a great story, but a terrifying ulcer causing disaster of an experience if it keeps happening.

Like, obviously I would forgive a GM who accidently gave us an encounter with bad (less than 90%) odds and no clear means to get out of it, but I would absolutely walk away from a game that was deliberately putting me on the tightropes.

That last bit is the problem. Between trivialized rest/recovery widespread healing word/other heals & the way death saves nullify any damage beyond zero if a PC gets even a single point of healing you wind up with a situation where the risk is zero until immediately flipping to those kind of executions

 

[overgeeked]

So, speaking as someone whose focus as a player in RPGs is maximum immersion resonance with my character (speaking in particular to the segment of the game where resurrection isn't exactly on the table)...

I don't want to die, and I don't want to be numbed to death (that of myself or of a beloved party member.)

As a player outside of my character headspace, I do want some minor threat of death to enhance the Experience, but I want it very low. Like... Maybe 1-2% total cumulative chance (not chance per adventure or per level) from starting level up to the point resurrection becomes available.

Don't actually have 5E experience yet, from what I've heard it delivers on the minimal threat of death but does so in a manner that can be a little jarring? (Death save popcorning)

If run rules-as-written, D&D 5E is perfect for you. It is not, however, perfect for me.

Can you elaborate on where this is stated to be the Spirit of the Game?

Which version would you like?

AD&D Player's Handbook, c1978. "Swords & sorcery best describes what this game is all about, for those are the two key fantasy ingredients. ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is a fantasy game of role playing which relies upon the imagination of participants, for it is certainly make-believe, yet it is so interesting, so challenging, so mind-unleashing that it comes near reality...A good Dungeon Master will most certainly make each game a surpassing challenge for his or her players. Treasure and experience gained must be taken at great risk or by means of utmost cleverness only. If the game is not challenging, if advancement is too speedy, then it becomes staid and boring."

Moldvay Basic, c1981. "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® Fantasy Adventure Game ("D&D® Game" for short) is a role playing adventure game for persons 10 years and older. In the D&D rules, individuals play the role of characters in a fantasy world where magic is real and heroes venture out on dangerous quests in search of fame and fortune. Characters gain experience by overcoming perils and recovering treasures. As characters gain experience, they grow in power and ability."

5E Player's Handbook, c2014. "In the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game, each player creates an adventurer (also called a character) and teams up with other adventurers (played by friends). Working together, the group might explore a dark dungeon, a ruined city, a haunted castle, a lost temple deep in a jungle, or a lava-filled cavern beneath a mysterious mountain. The adventurers can solve puzzles, talk with other characters, battle fantastic monsters, and discover fabulous magic items and other treasure...There's no winning and losing in the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game-at least, not the way those terms are usually understood. Together, the DM and the players create an exciting story of bold adventurers who confront deadly perils. Sometimes an adventurer might come to a grisly end, torn apart by ferocious monsters or done in by a nefarious villain. Even so, the other adventurers can search for powerful magic to revive their fallen comrade, or the player might choose to create a new character to carry on. The group might fail to complete an adventure successfully, but if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win."

So, yes, the spirit of D&D is high risk, high reward fantasy action-adventure, risking life and limb, etc.

I know personally I don't want High Risk.

In your post above you noted that you wanted no more than a 2% chance of character death until easy access to resurrection becomes available. Respectfully, that sounds like you don't want risk. You want your character to survive. Period.

That's so stressful, dancing on the edge of a knife makes for a great story, but a terrifying ulcer causing disaster of an experience if it keeps happening.

Right. You don't want risk. That's a perfectly valid way to play. It is, however, the opposite of what I want out of gaming.

Like, obviously I would forgive a GM who accidently gave us an encounter with bad (less than 90%) odds and no clear means to get out of it, but I would absolutely walk away from a game that was deliberately putting me on the tightropes.

I don't understand how you can think that having less than a 90% chance to win is "bad" odds. It's so high there's no point rolling dice. You just win. Huzzah. Conversely, I would walk away from any game that didn't involve risk. Nor would I run games for players who were that risk averse. It takes all kinds. Glad you have fun playing your way. It's definitely not for me though.

 

[Oofta]

One player in our group is like that. Never wants to be injured, always has to be at peak efficiency, doesn’t care a whit about the story, wants the strongest PC he can build, multiclass, or magic item/spell into. Doesn’t want challenge, just fight stuff and win.

Its annoying to play alongside, and to DM. And it been going on for 40 years..

In the last game I DM’d, the 5 minute workday was a thing. The players never went into a fight unless they were sure they could win, and if they weren’t sure, they made sure they were full on HP, spells, etc. ready to nova. There are only so many times you can interrupt rests, or set ticking clocks, or whatever.

Then they go to retrieve the McGuffin and it's gone because they waited too long. Reinforcements arrived or the enemy had time to prepare and now the fight will be much tougher. They go to storm the dungeon and it's empty, along with all the loot because everyone left. They go to storm the dungeon and find a pile of bodies and a note from a competing adventuring company with a few coppers with a note saying "We left some for you!"

I have played with people that pouted if they ever lost a single HP. I made a habit of having monsters use intelligent habits if appropriate and living with the pouting.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Have you taken a look at this thread?

Apparently 3-4 encounters was supposed to be the #, but the encounter difficulties got shifted around at the last minute and it turned into 6-8 instead.

Though if you shift the difficulty, it's actually pretty easy to go right back to 3-4 - it's just not explained or obvious, especially to new players.

Yes I have but good reminder!