D&D 5E Is 5E Special

[UngeheuerLich]

@EzekielRaiden

Do you think 4e was more balanced than 5e? And if so, which iteration?
4e had so many rules updates, that I can't really say, when it was actually balanced well.

Also, I strongly favoured 4e essentials design over core 4e, although 4e core had some gems like the fighter.

 

[Reynard]

Because people like to cry instead of acknowledging that they took on an encounter they had better avoided.

You mean like the first encounter of the adventure?

The desire of some folks to paint WotC as infallible is almost as weird as the desire by others to paint them as incompetent...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You mean like the first encounter of the adventure?

The desire of some folks to paint WotC as infallible is almost as weird as the desire by others to paint them as incompetent...

Ok, I admit, first encounters in adventures are a weakness. Although for Lost Mines of Phandelver, if you play the goblins with the tactics that are outlined, and the DM is only as experienced as the players, the encounter is quite survivable.

Edit: also, I never said they are infalliable. That was all in your head.

 

[Parmandur]

If that process worked so well, why does every book come with cries of imbalance or TPK encounters or other things every GM is required to adjudicate and/or fix?

Honestly, I don't take those seriously, with the exception of Tyranny of Dragons which they later fixed. The balance is not squeaky clean, but it works within parameters.

 

[LordEntrails]

If that process worked so well, why does every book come with cries of imbalance or TPK encounters or other things every GM is required to adjudicate and/or fix?

Cuz many in the community are a bunch of whiners?

No, but really...

What I mean is simple. People like to complain, they like to point out "flaws", they like to prove themselves better than others. They have the very real need for an ego.

And then you have the ones that don't, but have a different expectations. Perhaps they expect every option to deal the exact same average DPR regardless of adversary while other expect some option sets to be stronger in non-combat at the cost of combat. Or to account for crowd control versus single foe damage. Or to be better against undead and weaker against beasts. Or minions versus tanks. Or....

Balance is relative, and totally depends upon how broad of a spectrum one is concerned with (i.e. is a variation of 3% DPR significant?) and what aspects of the game (other than DPR) are valuable. Again, you can optimize a DPR queen who sucks in social encounters, is that balanced? Depends on your view.

So, people like to complain because their expectations and values differ. Because you know, we are humans with our own opinions.

 

[Parmandur]

please show your work on this. Please show us where this balance is.

I have said it before and will say it again, design an adventure (I normally say dungeon) with the expectations outlined in the DMG for level 6 PCs... then have 5 people each make 2 characters, and send them through twice.

1st group is a human fighter an elven ranger, a dwarf rogue, a half elf monk, and a half orc barbarian... BUT limit them to PHB subclasses.
2nd group is a Artificer (armor), wizard (bladesinger), Warlock (hexblade/blade pact) Cleric (twilight), and a Rouge 3 (arcane trick) Wizard 3 (Diviner)

you will find the 1st group has more HP, and slightly higher damage over the dungeon/adventure... you will find the second group gives up a few hp (but has 2 healers) and a bit of damage but makes up for it with spells spells spells...

with a slight bit of bad luck group 1 may not even make it through with no healer...

The key there is with bad luck. With average luck, they can squeeze through, which is the design. Failure is an option, but an unorganized group can succeed. Balance within parameters, which WotC has in spreadsheets.

I'm sorry... how is acting like any sane person would 'cheese'

"I 3 law rocket launchers, and 3 clips for my machine gun, body armor that will protect me but will break down, and a small darranger with infinite ammo... my buddy is super tough and has a axe and he knows how to use it... if I fire my rockets and use my machine gun clips I can get more by taking an 8 hour break... so YES we are going to break if we can... why wouldn't we?"

it gets even more crazy with healing magic... "I can revivify 2/day or cast a healing spell that heals 3d4+9 as a bonus action or a combo of 1 and 1... but those 2 uses are gone..." in the real world I am pretty sure when you ran out of 'get back up from dead's you would be resting.

The key part is in making the "can take a long break" a problem, which is not difficult.

Though it's also worth noting that many streaming games eventually found 5e to have previously unforeseen issues. The Adventure Zone, for example, has repeatedly employed other systems (Monster of the Week, which is a PbtA game, and The Quiet Year, which is a supplemental/"map-making" game) due to dissatisfaction with certain aspects of 5e.

IOW, there is a spectrum here, and while 5e is certainly way closer to the "convenience in use" end of that spectrum than PF1e, it is nowhere near the maximum of that spectrum.

For sure, PbtA and Call of Cthulu occupy the same wnd of the deaign space and may go further. But e.x and 4E...do not.

I have yet to see a single person actually articulate how to do this beyond a magical-sounding ability to provide extreme, nigh-on overwhelming time pressure at the level of a day (so 8-24 hours) but no meaningful pressure at all at the level of part-time work (so 1-7 hours.)

Because somehow taking 8 hours to rest is an utterly unacceptable option unless the party would die otherwise, but taking 3 hours (divided) for some short rests is absolutely fine, no concerns whatsoever. The logic of this is never explained beyond "well I've done it" and I frankly just don't believe it works nearly as well as people claim it does.

Edit: That is to say, I believe this can be done in short bursts, a single quick adventure or maybe once in a while on a more involved journey. Doing this all the time, pretty much every session, consistently, across an entire campaign? I don't buy it. But that's what you need to do to deal with this problem. Otherwise it's "5MWDs whenever the DM lets us and something approximating balance when she doesn't.

It's a game of resource management. If resource management is made easy, then it isn't challenging.

 

[Parmandur]

at level 11 the fighter gets more hp and an extra attack (so 3... the most in the game)

full casters get 6th level spells (remember a wizard can know 2 of those, and clerics just know all of them and they can prep them) I am going with a warlock though... it is the smallest list of spells to choose from and it locks it in so he can't prep another tomorrow...

he can, open a magic gate for everyone, or create a circle of death, or conjur a fey, or creat powwerful undead servents, turn someone to stone, or get teh element invest spells that all give a bunch of small bonuses I am not listing, or mass suggestion, or soul cage... you know what I am not even listing all the warlock options...

and a hexblad blade pact warlock has a similar ac average 13 less hp and 1 less melee attack... oh and still has 5th level spell slots

DPR over an Adventure day. Spells have a specific HP value, which Fighters keep up with.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

DPR over an Adventure day. Spells have a specific HP value, which Fighters keep up with.

Also, players that play fighters probably don't want to open magical gates. Also actions surge and second wind was not listed as were the magic weappns the fighter might use (in an average game, the best weapons go to fighters first).

I can't imagine D&D players that would accept fighters to be able to open magical gates except when they took ritual casting as a feat maybe.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The key there is with bad luck. With average luck, they can squeeze through, which is the design. Failure is an option, but an unorganized group can succeed. Balance within parameters, which WotC has in spreadsheets.

what spread sheets? where are you getting this. Nothing they have said indecated that... the class balance is so out of wack I can give 100 examples if you want (but I mean just search enworld alone for complaints let alone other sites

The key part is in making the "can take a long break" a problem, which is not difficult.

so again... unless you ALWAYS have a ticking clock that balance falls apart

 

[GMforPowergamers]

DPR over an Adventure day. Spells have a specific HP value, which Fighters keep up with.

spells that turn people to stone or kill them out right are encounter enders.
spells are NOT just damage, they are the most versatile tool (and most over used tool of the dev team) in the game