D&D 5E "Doom Sun" − reconstructing a 5e Dark Sun setting for the DMs Guild

[MonsterEnvy]

It cannot be that an entire infinite multiverse is under the control of a single setting and its genocidal, totalitarian, fascist Forgotten Realms "gods".

It's not. Despite you repeating this. Also I don't think the FR Gods are particularly genocidal, totalitarian, and fascist. (Minus Bane who is the god of Totalitarian Fascism)

 

[Yaarel]

Is that not still theistic? They worship elemental plans and therefor, I assume, have built a theology around them.

There is a blurry line between monism and monotheism.

Especially, when the concept of monotheism is infinite being beyond any finite thing, "God" is literally no thing. This nothingness lacks the finite personal qualities that make a person recognizable as a person.

Nevertheless, "theism" focuses on a "god" that one can relate to as person. Monotheists strive to form a personal relationship with the infinite, often using metaphors like sovereign, parent, lover. Monotheists have spent thousands of years contemplating both the usefulness and insufficiency of anthropomorphizing infinity.

But monism avoids the concepts of personhood. Arguably, the more mystical statements by quantum physics or the narrative of evolution − that things inherently start simple and become more complex − are principles that one can describe as monistic.

 

[Yaarel]

It's not. Despite you repeating this. Also I don't think the FR Gods are particularly genocidal, totalitarian, and fascist. (Minus Bane who is the god of Totalitarian Fascism).

The gods who threw Fyreen into the sun are genocidal, totalitarian, and fascist. ALL OF THEM.

The "gods" of Forgotten Realms are ethically problematic.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

The gods who threw Fyreen into the sun are genocidal, totalitarian, and fascist. ALL OF THEM.

The "gods" of Forgotten Realms are ethically problematic.

There is nothing suggesting the gods who may have destroyed Fyreen are the same gods as the FR ones (As different Wildspaces tend to have different gods). In fact it's not even stated for sure that gods did that, there are others who believe it's destruction was caused by utterly different circumstances. Gods destroying it is just one theory.

 

[Jer]

The "gods" of Forgotten Realms are ethically problematic.

Most published D&D pantheons from established settings are heavily influenced by the Greco-Roman pantheon, because that and maybe Norse mythology are pretty much the major thing that folks back in the day would think of when it comes to representing gods. (outside of the heavy Christian influence that is also all over early D&D settings, of course).

Unfortunately the Greek pantheon is one of the worst collections of gods you'll find on Earth. "Ethically problematic" is almost generous as a description of them. The Greeks themselves basically decided they weren't worthy of worship and ended up looking for better gods. So any pantheon based on them as a model is going to turn out rough.

 

[Yaarel]

There is nothing suggesting the gods who may have destroyed Fyreen are the same gods as the FR ones (As different Wildspaces tend to have different gods). In fact it's not even stated for sure that gods did that, there are others who believe it's destruction was caused by utterly different circumstances. Gods destroying it is just one theory.

If I remember correctly, 5e has removed the concept of the "Wall of the Faithless" from any 5e Forgotten Realms product.

But it too is an ongoing example of the many ways that Forgotten Realms "gods" are fundamentally Evil: genocidal, totalitarian, and fascist.

 

[Yaarel]

For the sake of accuracy.

Spelljammer presents the existence of gods as an objective fact. To deny the existence of gods is an error.

"
DOOMSPACE IN A NUTSHELL
[Stated as a fact]:
Thousands of years ago, a war between gods and primordials ended with all gods being banished from Doomspace. ... The primordials encased the system in a crystal sphere. ... After being kept out for eons, the gods finally found a way to shatter the crystal sphere. ...

[Stated as an opinion]:
What happened next isn’t known for a fact. ... Some say, the gods appeared ... and demanded to be worshiped. When they were rebuked, the gods vented their fury by collapsing the sun.

[Stated as an error because the gods are a fact]:
Those who deny the existence of gods
refute these claims
and turn to myths.

"

In sum. According to 5e Spelljammer, the gods are the truth. The inhabitants of Athas Fyreen are ignorant insubordinates who fail to recognize the truth.

 

[Yaarel]

Most published D&D pantheons ... maybe Norse mythology ... are pretty much the major thing that folks back in the day would think of when it comes to representing gods.

In D&D terms, the Norse "goð" are more like archfey − elves and trolls.

The Norse dont view them as "good". They are forces of nature. The cycle of seasons isnt "good", exactly.

The goð can be helpful, and humans appreciate their help. This help is normally impersonal, like the sun shining and warm winds blowing.

In all of the sagas, and all of their tragedies, the heroes dont pray to a goð for help. The few times one of them shows up in person, it is a disaster for the humans. For example, Þórr visits a farmer. Yay? The result is, the children offend him, get sold into thralldom to him, and the parents never see their children again. A woman tries to have children and cannot. Frigg shows to help. Yay? The woman conceives a child. But she eventually dies during childbirth. The baby survives and becomes a famous leader.

The Norse nature beings are forces of nature. They are not forces of good. Indeed, after Ragnarǫk, a world without the important ones is better off.

The Norse appreciate the nature beings, some even develop personal friendships. It is possible to love nature. To see the goodness of it. To feel affinity with some aspect of nature. At the same time, respect how dangerous or indifferent nature can be. Understand how nature behaves.

In D&D, to represent the Norse beings as "fey" (but epic level fey) is fine. The mood is correct: elves and trolls.

When I think on it mechanically. They are more like D&D chwinga. The Norse beings are elementals − literally shineshine, daylight, winds, mountains, ocean, etcetera − that are natives of the material plane. They behave the way nature does.



Actually, the Norse nature beings are a helpful analogy to think about the animistic Dark Sun Druids, and their personal relationships with various features of nature.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Yeah that's plausible.

Dark Sun is bizarrely popular, like Spelljammer, with younger people who have never played it, and has a whole chunk of people who like it from the 4E incarnation. If the version in Spelljammer seemed to be selling Athas short, or messing Athas up, I suspect a lot of people who might never even have played Dark Sun would have their noses put out of joint.

Especially as if it was similar to Fyreen, the whole "environmental" aspect would have been lost, because instead of the people of the planet screwing it up, they got screwed over by divine bollocks, which is a very different vibe - "sins of the ancestors" vs "a mean foreign god did it". It's just completely not the same.

My group (including myself) are all new to D&D, compared to most people on this forum. We've only played 5e and never played Dark Sun, but we all know quite a bit about Athas and would absolutely play a campaign in Dark Sun if it were translated to 5e. We like the setting so much that we're considering buying the 4e books and learning the system just to play in the setting.

If they changed the setting to make the destruction of the world not the fault of the people of the planet or got rid of the importance of psionics, or made any other major like that, we would hate the changes and probably not play the 5e version.

I know there's a lot of other newer players that have never played but also would be pissed off by changes like that.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I dont see Darksun clerics having a positive relation with the object of their Faith in some kind of grand plan to achieve elemental harmony.

I think its more of a ''Divine elements of creation must be appeased while we tremble in fear'' and ''When the dying world crumbles into its composing elements, we will be the ones saved, becoming one with X element''

BTW, can we avoid turning this thread into yet another thread were you explains in huge wall of text of much you know about Norse mythology?

The premise of the thread is super interesting, so an essay on the nature of god/energy/alfar/light elves/norse psionicist/FR gods and they perception in one, real life, mythology/psionic-animistic/not-worship based religion will probably just get in the way of designing a setting meant to be played for fun.

thanks and cheers.