D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[NotAYakk]

Sooo… don’t let the optimizers play Wizard?

Naw, just realize that in 5e D&D, the DM has a suite of tools delegated to them.

They are world plots, boons and magic items.

And if you can't fix any spotlight imbalance problems using those tools, you aren't creative enough.

 

[Ancalagon]

My vote would be "Any perceived imbalances between the classes in 5E is caused by the humans at the table, and not the rules system."

Humans can perceive, rules cannot, so....

 

[Vaalingrade]

Basically nothing is a problem if you simply become a person who doesn't acknowledge the problem or who the problem doesn't effect.

All fighter fans need to do is to simply become wizard fans... until we get good at building them and get banned from playing them apparently.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

When we talk about balance and intentional design, it seems it about available spells. Let’s do an exercise if anyone cares to do so.

Say you know little of the upcoming adventuring day. You may be on a clock of sorts such that you cannot simply change all of your spells.

What is the level 5, 8 and 12 prepared spell list for a wizard, cantrips included? Use only the PHB if possible.

Assume 18 int by 5th, 20 by 8th.

I don’t particularly like playing wizards. But just curious about the balance breaking list.

I think the last tier with wishes and simulacrum can’t be balanced per se. I am curious. And if anyone takes up the challenge, can you do it with PHB alone?

If not, it might be more about creep than initial design.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But that wasn't what Bob was asked, or how Bob responded.

Bob was asked "is this problem accidental or intentional?" and Bob couldn't answer because he felt the premise was false. "What problem?" he asked in response.

right... but it wasn't asked to bob... it was a discussion Bob just chose to come into in order to say "The premise of this discussion you are having is wrong" do you see how that is the opposite of helpful?

 

[Umbran]

Tell me you never played 4e without telling me you never.played 4e

This thread is not supposed to be about 4e. Please stop trying to make it about 4e.

 

[Quickleaf]

@Undrave Here's some quick and dirty comparison. I didn't do the weighting for % to hit / % fail Dex save cause it was a headache, and I didn't have time, but someone else is welcome to plug the numbers.

At the narrow level of just looking at 5th level damage of a fireball versus a 5th level fighter going all out (to the best of their ability in that edition), there's obviously been a change in design approach over the years.

Last column is difference between columns 4 and 6.

Obviously flawed analysis. Lone ogre. Fighter not optimized for damage. Assumptions about starting encounter distance. Blah blah blah. All of the analyses are flawed in some way. But it's indicative of underlying design philosophy shift.

Non-weighted Average Fireball vs. Fighter Damage Against an Ogre Throughout Editions

Edition	Ogre Avg HP	Fireball Avg Damage (by 5th level wizard)	Fireball Damage as % of Ogre HP	Fighter Avg Damage (at 5th level)*	Fighter Damage as % of Ogre HP	Who Rules?
OD&D	15 [4d6+1]	17.5 [5d6]	116%	3.5 [1d6]	23%	Wiz +93%
BECMI	19 [4d8+1]	17.5 [5d6]	92%	7.5 [1d8+3]	39%	Wiz +53%
AD&D 1e	19 [4d8+1]	17.5 [5d6]	92%	7.5 [1d8+3]	39%	Wiz +53%
AD&D 2e	19 [4d8+1]	17.5 [5d6]	92%	9.5 [1d8+5]	50%	Wiz +42%
3e	29 [4d8+11]	17.5 [5d6]	60%	13.5 [1d8+9]	46%	Wiz +14%
4e**	101 [?]	12 [3d6+5]	12%	18.5 [3d8+5]	18%	Ftr +6%
5e***	59 [7d10+21]	28 [8d6]	47%	42 [4 * (1d8+6)]	71%	Ftr +24%

*assume fighter with shield and longsword (normal sword in OD&D), 18 strength (18/01-50 for % strength in AD&D), longsword weapon specialization (in AD&D 2e), Weapon Specialization feat and 3-point Power Attack feat (in 3e)

**in 4e assume wizard with 20 Intelligence, take average hp of ogre savage (111) and ogre skirmisher (91) / in 4e assume fighter with 20 Strength using Brute Strike daily power

***in 5e assume fighter with 18 Strength with Dueling fighting style using Action Surge

 

[Undrave]

Need another choice :
imbalance between the classes is created by table play style

Then that’s accidental. That simply means the playtest didn’t cover that specific play style. The question is more about design intent than the actual result at the table.

so if the same player with the same out of game skill mastery of the system sits to play a game as a fighter then the next campaign a druid we should tell him "NO, you have to only be fighters!"?

I guess?

My vote would be "Any perceived imbalances between the classes in 5E is caused by the humans at the table, and not the rules system."

Again, that would mean accidental. Was the game designed with an eye for balance? Or was the Wizard specifically created to be the Best Class?

Even 4E was not perfectly balanced in games I played, and I played and DMed up to 30th. It was a different game, but it was never perfectly balanced whatever that means.

It at least tried to be balance and had transparent design that let us see where to improve.

at level 5 a wizard with a 16 Int can prep 8 spells and have 4 cantrips if we assume they prep/know half combat spells that means they can have 4 combat spells preped and 2 cantrips... odds of all 6 of those being fire are pretty rare unless they superspecilized in fire damage.

Tasha's laugh can rob either target of at least 1 action...and possibly end the encounter. that is a 1st level spell... toll the dead is a good cantrip, so is almost every other cantrip

Don't forget rituals!

So, back on topic, was this intentional design or accidental?

thank you!

 

[Maxperson]

when in that thread was ANY consensus reached let alone that one?

None. That's why it shows that it's their fault. That's what their posts demonstrate. They rely on the ability to cast dozens of different spells over a 1 hour period that include several concentration spells that all last their full duration. And that all 6-8 encounter happen in under an hour. And that you can explore an entire dungeon in 10 minutes. It complete relies on the DM being at fault.

 

[CleverNickName]

Again, that would mean accidental. Was the game designed with an eye for balance? Or was the Wizard specifically created to be the Best Class?

I mean, I guess, if you squint. My preferred vote option would be "Neither; I don't feel they are unbalanced," but as @GMforPowergamers has rightly pointed out, this is not the thread for that conversation. I should have read the thread title more closely.

I'll leave ya'll to it.