D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

[MGibster]

This is an issue that comes up often in table top miniature war gaming and it's a problem of balancing scale with playability. Battletech is in 6mm scale, and each hex on the map represents 30 feet. A machine gun mounted to a mech (a giant robot essentially) has a range of 3 hexes, or 90 meters. This is laughably short as a machine gun mounted on a tank or an infantry fighting vehicle in 2023 has an effective range of about 2,000 meters. The same problem can be seen in Warhammer 40k with a lasgun (laser rifle) having a range of about 150 feet (if we're going by scale ranges on the table) and a real life rifle having an effective range of 1,200 feet.

And the reasons behind this is largely due to making sure the game is playable. Having a 10 foot map is impractical for most people. To make the game playable, you have work with what you have. In the case of Battletech, the ridiculous ranges exist, in part, to encourage the possibility of giant robots getting in hand-to-hand combat with one another. Something that wouldn't happen if they were shooting at one another from 2,000+ meters away from one another.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean….I wouldn’t hate some zone rules for big open spaces, or even just a good chapter of zone rules for all combat.

It’s be really helpful for ship combat, too.

 

[codo]

Not everything needs to be mapped out. How often are you actually having combats take place where the combatants are hundreds of feet apart? If you are having combats routinely happen at that much of a range, I think the bigger problem is that melee characters can literally never participate in the battles.

In the past on the few occasions that I have had long range combats, I simply used a battlemap and drew 2 lines across the map, making 3 equal sections. I then placed each side on one side of the map and just wrote down the distance between the two sides in the middle of the map. If someone moved off their side toward the other, I just jotted down their distance to the other side.

I works perfectly fine. Maybe a little more work to keep track of positioning than normal, but still pretty simple, and I have literally only had to do it 2 or 3 times in the decade I have been playing 5e..

 

[Shiroiken]

Because the default version of play is Theater of the Mind, not running on a battlemap. Previous editions used to provide a random distance to start each encounter based on the terrain (pretty sure it's in 5E too) which are on average much larger than most DMs choose to use. You can still utilize a larger area than the battlemap you're using by simply noting how far off the edge of the map any given mini is; my group's been doing it since 2E without any problems at all.

 

[aco175]

When we used to shoot in the Army, we would hit everything in 100meters and then likely have disadvantage out to 200m. The standard qualification was to 300m where you could hit the target if you were calm, supported, and had several seconds to aim. That was about maximum range without a scope, although the weapon could shoot out to 1200m with a scope and bipod if you were a sniper. There is certainly a fault in the measuring of distance where one should get double disadvantage.

Like others have stated, I seem to never have had problems with that distance. I have a player that would shoot out that far with disadvantage for a couple rounds to make some sort of difference, but I have since just added more creatures to let him shoot some before the rest of the encounter begins. There is never any grid out to that distance, just me saying that the monsters will be here in 3 rounds to let the PCs do something.

Another similar things happened with 3e/4e in that dungeon rooms got larger to take into account many of the powers that needed 30 or 40ft rooms. back in the day, rooms were 10ft x 10ft with an orc guarding a chest and all the PCs could not hope to fit into the room to get in on attacking. Most dungeon rooms I run today are in the 30-40ft range with some each dungeon being in the 60-100 range. This allows for monsters to cross in one round and archers to reach across the room for one round.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I think they are mad players can see across open space and the DM can’t shut them down?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think they are mad players can see across open space and the DM can’t shut them down?

You could be right.

 

[Horwath]

On roll20, I put entire Phandalin on a single map with some forest around, map was 200×200squares or 1000×1000ft, what is the problem?

 

[TheSword]

I think the answer is implied in @tetrasodium ’s title.

The game isn’t balanced if the archer gets four rounds of combat before everyone else does. The DM doesn’t want to do that to the other players and the other players most likely don’t want it either. We know how some players react to any GM fiat that isn’t to their immediate benefit.

The answer is vision distances based on assumptions of terrain and cover, which 5e doesn’t have. I’d be included to lean on the 3e versions if it came up.

 

[Yaarel]

Note, player minis are often in the CENTER of the table or battlemat. Meaning, the reallife distance to accommodate the ingame distance actually needs to be twice as large.