D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

In D&D it does.
Magical stuff is always its own mechanics.
Spells, invocations, infusions, runes, psi magic.

Whereas the nonmagical is just reflavoring the base mechanics for poor results.
There's no additional mechanics to play a Eagle Warrior or Mandinka warrior.

But that's exactly what we are trying to get around with this new mythic martial class though right?

Fantastically martial abilities that are actually level appropriate and can have it's own mechanics.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Just make new classes.
The Fighter cannot successfully encompass 50 archetypes.

I suggest we stop using "Fighter" as much as possible to describe this new class. Fighter has too much baggage and confuses things. It's a poor chassis to start with as well.

Use Mythic Martial or Mythic Warrior or something to describe this new class that has the narrative permissions that we agreed on earlier.

And I believe this new class can encompass quite a few archetypes if built on selecting level appropriate abilities from a broad list.

 

[Yaarel]

If the short-rest Warlock returns, I suggest we use its chassis full-on.

The Warlock has many always-on and at-will features, plus options to improve them.

Its spellcasting represents physical exertion and the need to refresh afterward. Even the high tier per-long-rest spells, are akin to going nova and giving it all ones got.

Ideally, use spell maneuver points instead of spell maneuver slots. The warrior that uses the Warlock as the chassis, instead gains 1 + warrior level maneuver points. These points refresh during a short rest.

Each maneuver point is equivalent to the design space of a spell slot. For example, spend 1 point to boost AC (equivalent to Mage Armor for many hours, but by means of a kind stance).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I suggest we stop using "Fighter" as much as possible to describe this new class. Fighter has too much baggage and confuses things. It's a poor chassis to start with as well.

Use Mythic Martial or Mythic Warrior or something to describe this new class that has the narrative permissions that we agreed on earlier.

And I believe this new class can encompass quite a few archetypes if built on selecting level appropriate abilities from a broad list.

I know it would never fly, but I like "superhero". It was a fighter title back in 1e after all.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If the short-rest Warlock returns, I suggest we use its chassis full-on.

The Warlock has many always-on and at-will features, plus options to improve them.

Its spellcasting represents physical exertion and the need to refresh afterward. Even the high tier per-long-rest spells, are akin to going nova and giving it all ones got.

Ideally, use spell maneuver points instead of spell maneuver slots. The warrior that uses the Warlock as the chassis, instead gains 1 + warrior level maneuver points. These points refresh during a short rest.

Each maneuver point is equivalent to the design space of a spell slot. For example, spend 1 point to boost AC (equivalent to Mage Armor for many hours, but by means of a kind stance).

If you want to use the 2014 warlock chassis, then do it. It doesn't matter what WotC does.

 

[Hussar]

Just to be the voice of dissent here.

Fighter types in single digit levels are fine. And when we’re talking about mythic warriors, aren’t we more referring to double digit characters?

Why bother rebuilding levels 1-9? They aren’t really the issue. Isn’t the issue building on a bunch of stuff for later in the game?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just to be the voice of dissent here.

Fighter types in single digit levels are fine. And when we’re talking about mythic warriors, aren’t we more referring to double digit characters?

Why bother rebuilding levels 1-9? They aren’t really the issue. Isn’t the issue building on a bunch of stuff for later in the game?

Rebuilding the second half of the fighter by itself is a bold choice. If the concern is solely fixing a perceived mechanical issue, then I guess you're golden.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Just to be the voice of dissent here.

Fighter types in single digit levels are fine. And when we’re talking about mythic warriors, aren’t we more referring to double digit characters?

Why bother rebuilding levels 1-9? They aren’t really the issue. Isn’t the issue building on a bunch of stuff for later in the game?

The early level martials deserve interesting things to do too.

Low digit martials are not, in fact fine. They're boring and designed around limited imagination and a stern determination not to be fantastic at all in this, the self-proclaimed premier fantasy RPG.

If the rest of these fantasy characters get to be fantasy characters, the martials ought to be allowed the same courtesy. Somehow minotaurs and cat folk stop getting to do cool stuff because they're swinging a sword instead of hand-jiving and rubbing guano all over themselves? I say thee nay.

 

[Minigiant]

I am utterly confused by your point. We were working on a class design before this video thru us off track, and you began stating that weapon masteries were bad. And that somehow this was because it made fighter's better at low tiers and broke the game.

I really think this "slog" issue is MASSIVELY overblown. At level 5 the fighter is going to maybe force two saves a turn, if they have the correct weapon mastery, if they hit, and if they choose to activate it. Meanwhile a Cleric who has Spirit Guardians and casts toll of the dead can force 4 saves per turn, which is the exact same dice.

And in terms of slog... a Warlock, Wizard, Cleric, Druid party can all force multiple saves from multiple targets, multiple times a round. And this is not something that we attempt to fix because it will slow the game too much. The minuscule change in how fast a fighter player will take their turn is not a problem. Especially since, personally, I have noticed that taking a fast turn as a martial? It feels cheap. It feels like I'm clearly not doing anything impactful, because my turn is over in five seconds and everyone else is taking four times as long. Call it strange psychology, but being the only person whose job is to be simple and do little so the fight progresses quickly is... bad. It feels bad, and it feels like bad game design.

We arent talking about level 5.
We are talking about level 11 or 15.

If a level 8 or 9 game gets wonky, imagine the level 15 fights.

 

[Hussar]

Rebuilding the second half of the fighter by itself is a bold choice. If the concern is solely fixing a perceived mechanical issue, then I guess you're golden.

Not really. Your example text certainly works. You have always had this X inside you. It's just expressing now. ((Sorry, I've kinda forgotten the exact wording of what you wrote earlier, but I think that's the general gist))

So, no, it's not all that different. I do think that the notion of a new sort of sub-sub class, as it were, that grafts overtop of existing subclasses. Or some sort of Prestige Class for 10 levels would work quite well as well. At level 11, you are a Level X fighter/(subclass), 1st level Mythic Warrior. Your actions have triggered some sort of mythic fate - maybe you are touched by the gods, maybe you have tapped into some sort of warrior spirit, whatever. I'm not very good at that sort of thing, so, I'll leave that to others.

But, I do think that that idea of a 10 level fighter only prestige class would function. Plus, as an added bonus, you could easily build a bunch of different ones that mirror different "mythic warrior" archetypes.

The early level martials deserve interesting things to do too.

Low digit martials are not, in fact fine. They're boring and designed around limited imagination and a stern determination not to be fantastic at all in this, the self-proclaimed premier fantasy RPG.

If the rest of these fantasy characters get to be fantasy characters, the martials ought to be allowed the same courtesy. Somehow minotaurs and cat folk stop getting to do cool stuff because they're swinging a sword instead of hand-jiving and rubbing guano all over themselves? I say thee nay.

I honestly don't agree with this. The whole point of a mythic warrior is that it is about keeping the fighters up with the casters. In the single digit levels, the fighter types aren't lagging particularly at all. Maybe by 9th level, I suppose. 5th level spells have some pretty big guns - teleport, bigger summonings, so on and so forth, but, I'm willing to give a bit of wiggle room here.

This way those who don't want mythic warriors in their game have no problems - just end their campaigns when they normally end them - around 10th level. No harm no foul.

But, IMO, a "Mythic Warrior" archetype is meant for double digit, Tier 3+ play.