D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

This solution of rituals is less about fixing the Fighter, and more about softening the monopoly of spellcasters over a magical world at the highest levels.

And its also a bit of a cop out and would be percieved as lazy game design. You may as well just abandon the idea of DND altogether and just do an Ars rip off.

 

[Yaarel]

And its also a bit of a cop out and would be percieved as lazy game design. You may as well just abandon the idea of DND altogether and just do an Ars rip off.

LOL, since when do magic items "abandon the idea of D&D"?

How is a magic ritual different from a magic potion?

Whether a magic armor has the power to teleport, or a magic ritual has the power to teleport, it is all D&D magic items.

Let Fighter perform rituals.

There is already a feat to perform rituals, but few take it because it is nonpowerful and competes with feats that boost class features. Make ritual performance free.

Make sure high level noncombat utility rituals are normally available.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Note, the Treantmonk playtesting called out Topple as both broken and cumbersome during gameplay. I am unsure it is a useful example.

I really struggle to see what was broken, and I believe the video only called it out as potentially cumbersome.

And it is also worth noting what WASN'T mentioned. He only used sap once that he mentioned, and never used slow. The champion supposedly was using Nick, but I don't know if anyone even noticed. It is interesting to me that they say they found the weapon masteries added to the martial characters... but the majority of them didn't use any masteries.

A Fighter should be able to inflict the Frightened condition (such as via Intimidation, perhaps with a class feature that grants expertise or an advantage when used this way). A Fighter might be able to inflicted the Blinded condition, such as throwing sand within melee range.

Maybe a Fighter could shoot an arrow from a 100 feet away, to make the eye of a Dragon be Blinded. However, I dont like to see "loss of life or limb" unless the target is at zero hit points. Possibly, certain conditions could become possible if the target is already Bloodied.

Generally, a normal Fighter has the narrative plausibility to inflict conditions. It is a matter of implementing the flavor mechanically in balanced ways.

Sure, but knocking someone prone on a hit is only super ultra powerful when EVERYONE is melee. Again, I've got my own play experience. I've got a barbarian right now who is the sole and only melee character. In that party, prone is the most useless condition I could inflict. When you have something that is powerful depending on party composition... then that seems like it is actually balanced.

The thing people seem upset about is hitting, then causing a saving throw, and frankly, there are only two other options to change that.

1) The attack no longer has an attack roll, but is a saving throw entirely (which messes up a large number of abilities)

2) The knock prone is automatic on a hit.

Those are your only two options beyond hit and save.

 

[nevin]

LOL, since when do magic items "abandon the idea of D&D"?

How is a magic ritual different from a magic potion?

Whether a magic armor has the power to teleport, or a magic ritual has the power to teleport, it is all D&D magic items.

Let Fighter perform rituals.

There is already a feat to perform rituals, but few take it because it is nonpowerful and competes with feats that boost class features. Make ritual performance free.

Make sure high level noncombat utility rituals are normally available.

It's non powerful in a 1 dimensional only combat oriented game. In a 3d game where social interaction is just as important as combat it's a pretty powerful feat. This is generally the battle line of magic is broken. If combat is all you care about and your DM is on either extreme, 1. likes to shut party down with magic, or 2. gets enraged when mage messes up thier plans, then that side calls magic broken.

In a 3d game where all interactions can build friends or make enemies and all that comes into play magic is surprisingly less effective than a lot of people want it to be. On that side of the argument are the confused people trying to figure out what game the other side plays.

 

[Emberashh]

LOL, since when do magic items "abandon the idea of D&D"?

Didn't say that and you know I didn't.

How is a magic ritual different from a magic potion?

Drinking a potion =/= casting a spell. You're inappropriately conflating mechanical shortcuts as in-fiction elements.

Whether a magic armor has the power to teleport, or a magic ritual has the power to teleport, it is all D&D magic items.

Rituals aren't items.

Let Fighter perform rituals.

Ie, just abandon the idea of DND and embrace being Ars Magicka without any of the good parts.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

As much as you don't like circular arguments, the other side is the same. This insistence that people who are experienced and play fighters are just old-school-drinking grognards that "don't want to think about the game" is ridiculous. It is often the exact opposite. They want to think of creative solutions for problems as opposed to be bound by a section of text that explicitly states what they can and can't do. In other words, they are much more creative and imaginative than the wizard who is going to cast the same three spells in the same order because it allows them to do the most damage.

Anyone can "think of a solution". Including casters, who also get additional options that just work.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It very well could. I mean, the battlemaster maneuvers are a good start. You just need more or more powerful ones.

Precisely, which is what the Level Up system provides, both magically and otherwise.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

When designing a warrior class, you have three design goals: simple, powerful, versatile. Pick two. You aren't getting all three.

And yet casters get all 3. Why?

 

[Yaarel]

Didn't say that and you know I didn't.



Drinking a potion =/= casting a spell. You're inappropriately conflating mechanical shortcuts as in-fiction elements.



Rituals aren't items.



Ie, just abandon the idea of DND and embrace being Ars Magicka without any of the good parts.

I honestly dont understand your perspective.

For example, rituals are items.

If a Fighter finds a scroll, with instructions to perform a ritual, then that is a magic item. Compare the various tomes and manuals that are likewise magic items that function by giving instructions.

If a Fighter uses this magic item, great.

Wizards will use these rituals too, making ability checks to perform them, because it is worthwhile to save the spell slots for emergencies.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I am ok with Rogues needing to do Strength Checks when performing things that logically require Strength, such as physical stunts.

That said. A Rogue can have a class feature that allows it to substitute Dexterity for Strength.

Meanwhile, Athletics is body sense including balance. One could use Dexterity for balance, similar to using Dexterity for a finesse weapon. But it would be the difference between cautiously and precisely inching across a tightrope using a Dexterity (Athletics) Check, versus running across a tightrope at top speed using a Strength (Athletics) Check.

Even if Rogues get an ability, the same issue applies. Balance has nothing to do with strength, and running across a tight rope is an act of balance. And yet, with what you are declaring the strongman with his 18 str and 8 dex is going to be far superior at running over a tight wire than the gymnast with the 16 dex and 10 str.

I get you want to make athletics somehow more, but the only overlap between athletics and acrobatics is climbing, and climbing usually shouldn't even involve a check in the first place. So I don't see any reason to combine the two skills.

Whatever the mechanic. I hope nobody has problem with a Fighter tending to be competent at Athletics.

I don't have a problem with fighter's being good at athletics. The problem is "what mechanic" because all of the mechanics are being used by other classes.

Monks make far more sense to add +Wis to their physical abilities, and you could even justify a +dex to some perception or insight stuff.

Rogues get expertise and reliable talent

Barbarians sub strength for other scores and have a strength based reliable talent.

Other than adding an extra die to their rolls, I don't see anything else to do for fighters.

Yes. Heavy Armor can interfere with Athletics. This is reality.

That said. Very high Strength can obviate armor penalties, thus allowing mobility while in armor. A strong person can wear chain armor more comfortably than a less strong person can, and can jump and swim in chain armor and so on.

A high Strength Warrior can choose between a heavy armor knight concept or a high mobility skirmisher concept. They are different builds.

None of this has anything at all to do with what I was talking about. In the slightest.