Ruin Explorer
Legend
LOL! You're just doubling down on proving my point, it's amazing.
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D&D 5E Wizards Do Suck;)
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
I think Wizards are pretty good right now, but there are a few things I would like to see to improve them and put them really into a spellcasting class all their own:
1. Remove all weapon proficiencies. If they are shooting a crossbow or swinging a staff they are doing it with no proficiency bonus, unless they got the proficiency elsewhere.
2. Access to all spells. The Wizard list is the best list, but they are a bit weak right now on healing and primal magic. As practitioners of the magic art they should be allowed to learn any spell. While a Cleric has his god giving him spells, the Wizard can study and figure out how to channel this type of divine magic. Wizards would still have to have spells in their book.
3. No automatic spells at level up. They start with the normal 6 1st level spells, but every other spell in their book either needs to be found or they need to spend downtime and money doing research to add it. If they have seen the spell being cast they can cut the research time in half and if they have a willing partner who knows the spell and will spend time aiding them they can cut the time to 1 day and 50gp per spell level (25 gp if in the same school).
4. Single-class Wizards from one of the spell schools get a single extra spell slot of the highest level which recharges on every short rest, but the slot must be used to cast a spell from your spell school. So if you are playing War Magic or Bladesinger or any multiclass this does not apply to you but a single class Enchantment Wizard has a rechargable slot for an Enchantment spell and Evoker for an Evocation .... and could use that Evocation on cure wounds or heal. Single class Bladesingers and War Wizards would get proficiency in simple and martial weapons at 2nd level instead of this rechargeable spell slot.
5. Ability to cast a spell as a ritual if it is in your spell book, even if it does not have the ritual tag. But you can cast do this no more than once a day.
5. Extra spell casting feat at 6th, 10th and 14th level. This can't be used for an ASI, but must be used for a feat that provides a spell or is related to casting spells. So Metamagic Adept or Warcaster or Fey Touched would work, but not Pole Arm Master. Also if it is a half-feat you do not get the stat boost. Finally, since you do this through study, you ignore all prerequisites and restrictions on this. So you could get Drow High Magic without being a Drow for example. You can also replace this feat with another spellcasting feat at any level you get a feat, so this is one way to add more spells to your book if you are playing in a game that does not have a lot of downtime or scrolls.
Doing these things would really separate the Wizards from the other full casters and put them in a class of their own as "the magic class".
1. Remove all weapon proficiencies. If they are shooting a crossbow or swinging a staff they are doing it with no proficiency bonus, unless they got the proficiency elsewhere.
2. Access to all spells. The Wizard list is the best list, but they are a bit weak right now on healing and primal magic. As practitioners of the magic art they should be allowed to learn any spell. While a Cleric has his god giving him spells, the Wizard can study and figure out how to channel this type of divine magic. Wizards would still have to have spells in their book.
3. No automatic spells at level up. They start with the normal 6 1st level spells, but every other spell in their book either needs to be found or they need to spend downtime and money doing research to add it. If they have seen the spell being cast they can cut the research time in half and if they have a willing partner who knows the spell and will spend time aiding them they can cut the time to 1 day and 50gp per spell level (25 gp if in the same school).
4. Single-class Wizards from one of the spell schools get a single extra spell slot of the highest level which recharges on every short rest, but the slot must be used to cast a spell from your spell school. So if you are playing War Magic or Bladesinger or any multiclass this does not apply to you but a single class Enchantment Wizard has a rechargable slot for an Enchantment spell and Evoker for an Evocation .... and could use that Evocation on cure wounds or heal. Single class Bladesingers and War Wizards would get proficiency in simple and martial weapons at 2nd level instead of this rechargeable spell slot.
5. Ability to cast a spell as a ritual if it is in your spell book, even if it does not have the ritual tag. But you can cast do this no more than once a day.
5. Extra spell casting feat at 6th, 10th and 14th level. This can't be used for an ASI, but must be used for a feat that provides a spell or is related to casting spells. So Metamagic Adept or Warcaster or Fey Touched would work, but not Pole Arm Master. Also if it is a half-feat you do not get the stat boost. Finally, since you do this through study, you ignore all prerequisites and restrictions on this. So you could get Drow High Magic without being a Drow for example. You can also replace this feat with another spellcasting feat at any level you get a feat, so this is one way to add more spells to your book if you are playing in a game that does not have a lot of downtime or scrolls.
Doing these things would really separate the Wizards from the other full casters and put them in a class of their own as "the magic class".
Last edited:
Baumi
Adventurer
After playing Baldurs Gate 3 and Pathfinder 2, where wizards can just change Spells out of combat (its a Wizard Class Option in PF2) I would love that feature in 5E. Even moreso just have every spell know prepared. So Wizards don't have more spell slot, but have much more options at hand.
I haven't seen anything that broke in BG3 or PF2 with it, but it made playing the Wizard much more fun and usefull for the group. It's also easier to use when you don't have to change around which spells you have prepared. It also makes the difference to Sorcerer more profound .. Wizard has much more Options, while Sorcerer more power with the spells he knows.
I haven't seen anything that broke in BG3 or PF2 with it, but it made playing the Wizard much more fun and usefull for the group. It's also easier to use when you don't have to change around which spells you have prepared. It also makes the difference to Sorcerer more profound .. Wizard has much more Options, while Sorcerer more power with the spells he knows.
Zardnaar
Legend
Wizards don't get that many more spell slots though so can't make to much use of those spells.
Arcane recovery mostly translates into a few more level 1 or 2 spells.
RoughCoronet0
Dragon Lover
I posted this in another thread but I think this thread is better suited for it.
What Wizards need is more mechanical heft to their main class chassis, something that is more then just casting spells (which all casting classes can do). The Memorize/Modify/Create Spell....spells from the UA were a step in the right direction in my opinion, because it actually gave the base Wizard a unique feature that fits with it's theme, masters of spell craft being able to quickly modify and create unique and individualized spells with time and practice. Not to mention giving them a ritual that allows them to switch out a spell they know in a pinch during a short rest, like a master of arcane knowledge learning their is a dangerous creature like a hydra the party must contend with and going "oh, I believe I have heard about Hydras and may know a spell that can handle those pesky regenerative heads, let me quickly look over it and I'll be ready for action".
They also need better designed subclasses with more impactful features throughout all subclass levels, especially the 8 schools of magic subclasses. While a few of them get an early feature that is pretty cool and thematic while playing off the spells of that school, many of them don't get features that really capture the theme of that magic school until significantly later in level, if at all (looking at you Conjuration and Transmutation). I think the idea of a Wizard who is a master of a specific class is cool in theme and theory, but it's not executed well. I'd also love to see each subclass be able to interact with the Modify/Create Spell feature in a unique way as well, like how the UA Rogue Subclasses interact with the main class's Cunning Strike feature.
What Wizards need is more mechanical heft to their main class chassis, something that is more then just casting spells (which all casting classes can do). The Memorize/Modify/Create Spell....spells from the UA were a step in the right direction in my opinion, because it actually gave the base Wizard a unique feature that fits with it's theme, masters of spell craft being able to quickly modify and create unique and individualized spells with time and practice. Not to mention giving them a ritual that allows them to switch out a spell they know in a pinch during a short rest, like a master of arcane knowledge learning their is a dangerous creature like a hydra the party must contend with and going "oh, I believe I have heard about Hydras and may know a spell that can handle those pesky regenerative heads, let me quickly look over it and I'll be ready for action".
They also need better designed subclasses with more impactful features throughout all subclass levels, especially the 8 schools of magic subclasses. While a few of them get an early feature that is pretty cool and thematic while playing off the spells of that school, many of them don't get features that really capture the theme of that magic school until significantly later in level, if at all (looking at you Conjuration and Transmutation). I think the idea of a Wizard who is a master of a specific class is cool in theme and theory, but it's not executed well. I'd also love to see each subclass be able to interact with the Modify/Create Spell feature in a unique way as well, like how the UA Rogue Subclasses interact with the main class's Cunning Strike feature.
I'm on board with the idea the wizards are often over-rated while people complain about other arcane spell casters but wizards don't "suck". Many of the subclasses aren't interesting and I can see that concern, but as an arcane caster they have the largest spell list, best ritual mechanics, and easiest access to change those spells. The easiest way to play a wizard is to load up on rituals to cast from a spell book so that the character can load up on other prepped spells. Prepped spells plus rituals is a larger number of spells options available at any given time over other arcane casters. Take some staple spells and some useful spells not available to other arcane classes (or too situational for a spells known list) and the wizard has clear advantages over those other casters.
Currently, sorcerers and warlocks cannot use rituals in the base class and tome warlocks have other differences. Bards can afford only a few rituals. A 1st level wizard can prep 4 spells and access 2 rituals outside of prep for 6 spell options and clearly more. A 10th level wizard can prep 15 spells and have and easily have 8+ rituals and clearly have a lot more spell options at any given time.
It's a valid point that wizard work within a subset of their spell list but that ignores the fact that the spells known arcane casters are also working with a subset of their own smaller spell lists. Wizard gain access to a larger subset far faster than those other arcane spell casters. It's a valid point that wizards work within a subset of their spells but it's not a good point for a complaint against wizards when those other classes work within a smaller subset of a smaller list gaining slower access.
The table above does not include the option to learn new spells via scroll, spell book, or possible research; which is an additional advantage. The ability to expanding that subset of spells for gp is a benefit wizards have over other arcane spell casters, not a disadvantage.
The wizard trope of an intelligent spell caster carrying around a book and casting spells (rituals) from it is met within the game mechanics. The wizard is that arcane ritual caster. 5e24-UA5 does support that better with the wizard. Modify spell and create spell to add ritual tags to qualifying spells does increase the wizard's ritual range. Those wizard abilities gave the wizards the ability to have better versions of any arcane list spell in their book for some gold and downtime; expensive but worthwhile.
I am not seeing arguments here that justify "wizards suck". It looks more like "wizards suck because other classes exist and can do stuff too".... '-)
Level | Bard | Sorcerer | Warlock | Wizard (book) | Wizard (prep) |
1 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 6 | 4 |
2 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 8 | 5 |
3 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 10 | 6 |
4 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 12 | 8 |
5 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 14 | 9 |
6 | 9 | 7 | 7 | 16 | 10 |
7 | 10 | 8 | 8 | 18 | 11 |
8 | 11 | 9 | 9 | 20 | 13 |
9 | 12 | 10 | 10 | 22 | 14 |
10 | 14 | 11 | 10 | 24 | 15 |
Currently, sorcerers and warlocks cannot use rituals in the base class and tome warlocks have other differences. Bards can afford only a few rituals. A 1st level wizard can prep 4 spells and access 2 rituals outside of prep for 6 spell options and clearly more. A 10th level wizard can prep 15 spells and have and easily have 8+ rituals and clearly have a lot more spell options at any given time.
It's a valid point that wizard work within a subset of their spell list but that ignores the fact that the spells known arcane casters are also working with a subset of their own smaller spell lists. Wizard gain access to a larger subset far faster than those other arcane spell casters. It's a valid point that wizards work within a subset of their spells but it's not a good point for a complaint against wizards when those other classes work within a smaller subset of a smaller list gaining slower access.
The table above does not include the option to learn new spells via scroll, spell book, or possible research; which is an additional advantage. The ability to expanding that subset of spells for gp is a benefit wizards have over other arcane spell casters, not a disadvantage.
The wizard trope of an intelligent spell caster carrying around a book and casting spells (rituals) from it is met within the game mechanics. The wizard is that arcane ritual caster. 5e24-UA5 does support that better with the wizard. Modify spell and create spell to add ritual tags to qualifying spells does increase the wizard's ritual range. Those wizard abilities gave the wizards the ability to have better versions of any arcane list spell in their book for some gold and downtime; expensive but worthwhile.
I am not seeing arguments here that justify "wizards suck". It looks more like "wizards suck because other classes exist and can do stuff too".... '-)
Neonchameleon
Legend
I'm not sure anyone is saying that they suck in terms of power. It's simply that thematically all wizards are basically the same; high complexity, low variety. And because they pick from the same spell list and only have very limited changes to their spells from the subclasses and because spells are an in character choice a wizard is about as interesting as a single sorcerer subclass.
And this is an example of the problem. Your first wizard is a has a very strong claim to be the best ritual caster in the game (the only other candidate being a tomelock) and is a fun choice. Your second wizard? They are either going to pick all the same spells they don't prepare as the first wizard or they are going to be leaving a lot of power on the table.
Even the wizard subclasses don't offer that much. They are better than the previous subclasses, but in an irony you're better off not picking spells from your specialist school when you level up so you gain the cost advantage. Let's look at what each in turn does to change your spell selection from other than a "vanilla wizard" set.
- Abjuration: You will cast Mage Armour at the start of the day (for 2xlevel + Int thp). Other than that gain 2thp/spell level for casting an abjuration spell. Mage Armour, Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, and Dispel Magic are all good candidates for the vanilla wizard kit anyway so you just gain from taking the spells a vanilla wizard would.
- Conjuration: Benign Transposition recharges on a ritual - all this incentivises you to do is cast Tenser's Floating Disk or Unseen Servant whenever you have a spare ten minutes. The sort of rituals vanilla wizards cast anyway. And the summons boosts come late.
- Divination: This school might change the spells you actually cast by lowering the effective cost for a divination spell from one slot to one spell level.
- Enchantment: No reason at all to change your spells before level 10. There are some fine spells to use it on - but they are almost all already on the generic wizard shortlist. And 90% of games end by level 10.
- Evocation: OK, yes, keeping your allies safe from your fireballs can affect how you play and which spells you cast.
- Illusion: Malleable illusion is a genuine hit. Yes, this school does impact your spell selections.
- Necromancy: Precisely one spell is affected in the first thirteen levels. Animate Dead.
- Transmutation: Polymorph - for which you get a bonus use. It's a great spell anyway.
- War Magic: Damage spells, Dispel Magic, and Counterspell synergy. This is probably the most vanilla of subclasses.
- Order of Scribes: Nope
- Bladesinger: Nope
By being so powerful and so flexible the base wizard class specialises less - and therefore two wizards come out looking a lot more similar than any other primary caster. And are therefore less interesting to play again than any other caster.
homunculus23
Villager
Wow - they made the Wizard suck again. The Soceror gets one additional cantrip, the same number of spell slots, and meta magic. The wizard gets... to memorize spells? Like anyone I've ever, every played with holds wizards and sorcerers to the number of spells they memorize. It's always a free-for-all chaos.
Why can they just not give the wizard additional skills, or more spell slots than other classes to reflect their study?
No reason to play a wizard, and always make INT the dump stat again.
Why can they just not give the wizard additional skills, or more spell slots than other classes to reflect their study?
No reason to play a wizard, and always make INT the dump stat again.
Neonchameleon
Legend
So what you are saying is that the class that is already the most flexible and at high level the most powerful, and already gains more spells known (an extra spell of their specialist school per spell level rather than getting cheaper writing) should have still more given to them?
And the reason for this is that a seriously underpowered class got a few buffs? Seriously have you ever played a 2014 sorcerer?
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