D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Reynard]

So, a divine caster like a Cleric, Paladin, Druid etc don't need any actual divine link to power and can just use "The power of my inner belief )or love or friendship or self respect etc) to gain divine powers.

Well, here's your problem right there.

More seriously:

I look at it this way. Some people have super powers (monks, psions, sorcerers) and some learn how to manipulate the "rules" (wizards) but everyone else needs either divine favor (paladins and clerics/druids) or to strike a deal (warlocks). I didn't mention rangers because they shouldn't have magic, and I didn't mention bards because they shouldn't exist.

 

[overgeeked]

This is one of the many reasons I love DCC RPG and how it handles wizards, patrons, clerics, and gods. You're not getting power for free. You owe someone a favor, perhaps several. And they're going to collect...or they're going to revoke your power.

 

[Maxperson]

This is nothing new.

As far back as 3e, clerics could gain power from a philosophy rather than a deity. Might even go back earlier, since I played a 2e specialty cleric that followed a philosophy (maybe my DM was just being nice, I don't recall).

Even back in the early days of the game you had folks fresh off the farm who decided to go adventuring and thus were 1st level fighters. Nevermind that being able to use all weapons and armor implies a significant degree of martial training.

By the OPs reasoning, it seems to me that if my fighter prays to a deity, then he should be justified in having access to the same spells as a cleric. But clearly that isn't so. A far more reasonable conclusion, IMO, is that those who can draw upon the power of faith to that degree are the exceptions, rather than the rule.

In 2e you could get 1st and 2nd level spells on faith alone. After that you needed a deity.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This is nothing new.
As far back as 3e, clerics could gain power from a philosophy rather than a deity. Might even go back earlier, since I played a 2e specialty cleric that followed a philosophy (maybe my DM was just being nice, I don't recall).

The Complete Priest Handbook by the late, great, Aaron Alston included Forces and Philosophies as alternatives, yes.
(IDK about the L&L specialty clerics.)

Even back in the early days of the game you had folks fresh off the farm who decided to go adventuring and thus were 1st level fighters. Nevermind that being able to use all weapons and armor implies a significant degree of martial training.

The 1e figther's level title was Veteran - there was training & some experience, if no exp, to get to 1st, it seemed. 1e also made distinctions among 0-level characters with 'men at arms' clearly having training, and 'active' people having more hp than 'sedentary' ones

By the OPs reasoning, it seems to me that if my fighter prays to a deity, then he should be justified in having access to the same spells as a cleric. But clearly that isn't so. A far more reasonable conclusion, IMO, is that those who can draw upon the power of faith to that degree are the exceptions, rather than the rule.

In 3e or 5e a fighter could find religion and MC to Cleric any time he gained a new level... ?

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Because it depends on your strengths. Some people are artists, others are scientists. Just because one person can paint a masterpiece, doesn't mean you can do it. I like to draw, but I'll never be Todd McFarlane.

Divine casters - My belief is strong enough to change the very fabric of reality and bend physics to my will.
Artificers and Wizards - The world is logical and has strict rules. If I learn these rules, I can use them and work within them to achieve my desires.
Warlocks - I'm lazy, so I'll just make a deal and get my power. Why work hard, when I can just mooch off others?
Bards - My stories and songs are so compelling, that they can reshape the world around us!
Sorcerers - Some people are lucky and born into their power. It's their birthright.
Druids - Nature is the source of all life, and in that there is power.

 

[Minigiant]

Because not every oath, creed, or belief has enough power to do anything.

If the "power of polka" lacks the energy to raise the dead it can't raise the dead.

 

[Maxperson]

Because not every oath, creed, or belief has enough power to do anything.

If the "power of polka" lacks the energy to raise the dead it can't raise the dead.

It's not the oath, creed or belief. It's the strength of faith in the oath, creed or belief. When it comes to clerics the level of faith they have is astounding. Think of the average believer. Many have strong faith and go to the church of their god every holy day, yet their faith is not such that they are a priest. There is probably 1 clerics for every 100 or 1000 normal priests. The faith of a cleric is way beyond an ordinary priest who is way beyond an ordinary worshipper.

If Weird Al exhibited such strong faith in the power of polka, he would gain clerical powers.

 

[DammitVictor]

There's that 3pp Warlock conversion for PF1 that never got officially published-- The Avowed-- that had the literal option to use yourself as your Warlock patron. Alongside the standard options (fae/fiend/dragon/genie/goo), warlocks of nationalism, etc etc etc.

 

[Minigiant]

It's not the oath, creed or belief. It's the strength of faith in the oath, creed or belief. When it comes to clerics the level of faith they have is astounding. Think of the average believer. Many have strong faith and go to the church of their god every holy day, yet their faith is not such that they are a priest. There is probably 1 clerics for every 100 or 1000 normal priests. The faith of a cleric is way beyond an ordinary priest who is way beyond an ordinary worshipper.

If Weird Al exhibited such strong faith in the power of polka, he would gain clerical powers.

Still needs power.

And without deities, your faith has to power.

Do you realize how nutzo fanatical you have to power a philosophy into giving it divine power by yourself?

At least the lone cleric of a god has a creature with divine ranks which stored power and might have a portfolio or domain to siphon from.

The lone cleric of a philosophy is "back away from slowly" territory.

Because such a person has such unwavering zealous faith that they are able to create miracles and is most likely completely crazy.

 

[Maxperson]

Still needs power.

No, it doesn't. At least not in 3e or 4e, and 2e apparently with the Priest book. 5e went back to deities only, but that seems like an oversight.

And without deities, your faith has to power.

Not according to the rules of most of the editions.

Do you realize how nutzo fanatical you have to power a philosophy into giving it divine power by yourself?

Yes. Cleric fanatical.

Because such a person has such unwavering zealous faith that they are able to create miracles and is most likely completely crazy.

That's a cleric man. It's zealot level faith that gets the attention of the god.