RPGing and imagination: a fundamental point

I am not advocating attempting to understand YZE on the basis of a couple of quotes in an Enworld post.


Apply the same rigour we've advocated for games like AW, DitV and DW. Play the games, then judge.
I'm not saying I have entirely judged YZE, or MYZ specifically, only on that basis. I haven't judged it at all, really. At best I commented on what the quotes sound like, that's all. Believe me, I'll play most anything enough to find out what it is and what I think about, assuming I have the bandwidth. MYZ probably isn't high on my bucket list, but that could always change. As for AW, DitV, DW, etc. I've played 2 of the three, one of them quite extensively, and I'm aiming for at least a DitV one-shot. I think I know them reasonably based on the terminology/taxonomy in use there, but of course I might be a bit off on DitV.
Could be.


Six Cultures would be a different conversation. As I've said a few times now, I don't apply the label "neo-trad" to cultures of play - OC serves better there IMO - but to the trend in contemporary TTRPG design.
Well, you obviously have your ideas about that which differ from mine. Neo-trad IMHO says almost nothing about design. I mean, you may define the play style of people who like a certain game as 'neo-trad', and see servicing that as a trend in design. I don't. It is at best a very loose and ill-defined term which can be applied to a lot of modernish play (IE post-mid-1980s).
I can fruitfully investigatge what designers are prioritising and how they're managing the rules and principles to make it work in play. For example, many games now use flags to drive mechanics for advancement, moments of narrative authority, and making it so "when the player means it the character means it." Many games now use a momentum mechanic to feed individual act results into resolution of narrative arcs. Canvassing relevant games, playing and observing play of them, reading critiques, are basic design steps toward understanding how to make advances on valued modes of play.
But mechanisms which align player and character intent are certainly part and parcel of many Narrativist designs, though not all. Nor do many games which I see people calling neo-trad, even including 5e in some play at least, consistently do these things. I just think the agenda-focused Forge-inspired style of analysis is much more effective. That's just my experience. Its not like I believe any specific framework is the last word in terms of understanding play, game design, etc.
Labels that characterise game texts and relate them to one another are useful. If you don't think so, then perhaps that isn't true for you. Let's simply agree to disagree on this one. One thing I picture that you do not mean to dig your heels in on is that only nar can make technical advances, or that other modes have nothing to learn from nar.
 

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clearstream

(He, Him)
Well, you obviously have your ideas about that which differ from mine. Neo-trad IMHO says almost nothing about design. I mean, you may define the play style of people who like a certain game as 'neo-trad', and see servicing that as a trend in design. I don't. It is at best a very loose and ill-defined term which can be applied to a lot of modernish play (IE post-mid-1980s).
To clarify on this one aspect, I see a common design trend serving several enduring playstyles. An evolution of "modernish play", commencing in the early 2010s. It is typified by greater attention to player goals, but doesn't necessarily go all the way to OC. In fact, some game texts I'd include under this umbrella embrace "the sacrament of death" and accordingly guide away from deep characters.

To give some idea how the design attitude and intent plays out - an approach I find fruitful is comparing mechanics embodying similar techniques or satisfying similar ends. For example, a "job" that multiple modes of play want to do is what I said about momentum - counting individual acts toward resolution of an arc. FF L5R is one example, but obviously clocks in BitD, SCs in 4e, and vows in Ironsworn work in the same space. They're all ways to say when enough has been done toward a goal. There are a million ways to skin that particular cat, and some have proven more successful in play than others. Which can be seen through comparing their mechanics and practices; playing games containing them, observing, reading critiques of, etc. It's very interesting to look at creative examples, such as in Ironsworn Delve, to find the envelope - what can and can't be done with the technique. It's premised on something at odds with some Forge theorists, which is a far more flexible idea of how to achieve coherent play... of the possibilities of play.
 
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innerdude

Legend
"Original Character"

Often used (by my teenaged daughter at least) to reference a custom / new character devised to participate in an existing fandom / IP with the characters that already inhabit the fiction as created.
 

Pedantic

Legend
"Original Character"

Often used (by my teenaged daughter at least) to reference a custom / new character devised to participate in an existing fandom / IP with the characters that already inhabit the fiction as created.
Worth noting that's not an exclusive usage. You can imagine both "my Fire Emblem OC" for a fan-fiction-y creation, or something like "a painting of our OCs together" for characters that don't necessarily inhabit an established fiction.
 


To clarify on this one aspect, I see a common design trend serving several enduring playstyles. An evolution of "modernish play", commencing in the early 2010s. It is typified by greater attention to player goals, but doesn't necessarily go all the way to OC. In fact, some game texts I'd include under this umbrella embrace "the sacrament of death" and accordingly guide away from deep characters.

To give some idea how the design attitude and intent plays out - an approach I find fruitful is comparing mechanics embodying similar techniques or satisfying similar ends. For example, a "job" that multiple modes of play want to do is what I said about momentum - counting individual acts toward resolution of an arc. FF L5R is one example, but obviously clocks in BitD, SCs in 4e, and vows in Ironsworn work in the same space. They're all ways to say when enough has been done toward a goal. There are a million ways to skin that particular cat, and some have proven more successful in play than others. Which can be seen through comparing their mechanics and practices; playing games containing them, observing, reading critiques of, etc. It's very interesting to look at creative examples, such as in Ironsworn Delve, to find the envelope - what can and can't be done with the technique. It's premised on something at odds with some Forge theorists, which is a far more flexible idea of how to achieve coherent play... of the possibilities of play.
Well, I think it may be possible to use 4e SCs like this, but I don't think it was really envisaged that way. They're presented as really being an 'encounter'. Now, some of the DMG2 examples and a few hints do provide an idea of maybe having overarching SCs, but OTOH I think that 4e has a different model for that, the quest. BitD clocks likewise, you can give them whatever scope you want, but mostly I think they're oriented towards tactical or 'operational' concerns, with concepts like 'war' and the relation status with other crews factoring more heavily on the strategic end. The other games I feel less qualified to discuss in that light. DW/AW have fronts, which I think are more about the GM providing the feeling of 'stuff happening in the background' vs momentum. Anyway, I am not sure how momentum specifically speaks to a certain one of the 'cultures of play'. I'm not sure how it relates exactly to GNS-style agenda either though. I agree however it is something to look at as a technique. I've been giving that more consideration in HoML lately by emphasizing quests more and making them a more central aspect of play.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
So I've described the "job to be done" as "counting individual acts toward resolution of an arc" and "ways to say when enough has been done toward a goal." I might be misreading your post to have a tone of disagreement: if that is on the matter of scale, I would argue that the fundamental job done, and consequential distinctions between members of this family of mechanics, don't turn on that.

Well, I think it may be possible to use 4e SCs like this, but I don't think it was really envisaged that way. They're presented as really being an 'encounter'. Now, some of the DMG2 examples and a few hints do provide an idea of maybe having overarching SCs, but OTOH I think that 4e has a different model for that, the quest.
The 4e DMG2 has the most to say on the scale and breadth of skill challenges. "You can even use a structure challenge as the framework for a whole section of an adventure, or even the entire adventure." The "War By Other Means" case study "represents the player characters’ efforts to oversee and perhaps influence the negotiations as they try to keep matters from devolving into violence."

But compare with the looser structure of momentum points in L5R, which counts only successes. Also counting failures as 4e does has consequences for play.

BitD clocks likewise, you can give them whatever scope you want, but mostly I think they're oriented towards tactical or 'operational' concerns, with concepts like 'war' and the relation status with other crews factoring more heavily on the strategic end.
You mention tactical and operational concerns, and strategic... a wide range. As examples, Long-Term Project and Faction clocks can span sessions.

I would differentiate BitD clocks from momentum points and SCs on the basis that normally only player characters can earn momentum points or SC successes/fails, but BitD clocks are generally driven by other things. In terms of structure and potential, though, they're part of the same family of mechanics.

DW/AW have fronts, which I think are more about the GM providing the feeling of 'stuff happening in the background' vs momentum. Anyway, I am not sure how momentum specifically speaks to a certain one of the 'cultures of play'. I'm not sure how it relates exactly to GNS-style agenda either though. I agree however it is something to look at as a technique. I've been giving that more consideration in HoML lately by emphasizing quests more and making them a more central aspect of play.
Good point. The way dangers trigger grim portents that herald the impending doom is a kind of clock. They're looser than the other examples I chose, and while player characters will no doubt form goals relating to them and ultimately drive them, to my mind they stand as an outlier. Still, they do exemplify the general job to do - when has the badness gone far enough to trigger the end?

Momentum mechanics speak to a contract between participants as to what equals enough. When have we done enough to navigate through the Forest of Neverlight? When have we done enough to find the Mastermind, persuade the Duke, and so on. They constrain and compel... in partricular constraining and compelling GM. Desiring to do that is one sign of a neo-trad design: it's not just - no rule zero - it's here's some boilerplate for your negotiations.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Momentum mechanics speak to a contract between participants as to what equals enough. When have we done enough to navigate through the Forest of Neverlight? When have we done enough to find the Mastermind, persuade the Duke, and so on. They constrain and compel... in partricular constraining and compelling GM. Desiring to do that is one sign of a neo-trad design: it's not just - no rule zero - it's here's some boilerplate for your negotiations.
Writing that, I feel like a hallmark of neo-trad design is the reappraisal of GM via principles and/or mechanics. In many cases, GM is plainly called out as a player (ToR and YZE are examples, and Cortex Prime depending how you read it.) In other cases, GM is still cast with traditional powers, and then these are constrained and compelled by the mechanics (L5R is an example.)

I want to focus for a moment on L5R. On first reading, its advice for GMing disappointed me. I felt, and still feel, that it goes against the overall effect of the design. It makes the game text for me one whose neo-trad aspirations are hindered by an - in that light - incorrect design move. Had the designers been able to avail of a "neo-trad design manifesto" would they have made different choices?

What's at stake can be outlined fairly easily

Where GM is not a player, they are part of the lusory-means and do not have goals they play toward. Rules don't bind referees: they uphold them. It is referee who says what the rules mean constrained by standards of conduct and in light of best practices. This offers a general solve for a wide range of problems that arise in play that - per the OP - is about imagining things.​
Where GM is a player, they must adopt some version of a lusory-attitude and have goals, albeit asymmetrical ones. It implicitly makes conflict with adversaries of the player characters a case of PvP. That isn't a bad thing! Rules bind players, including players taking on the role of GM. One consequence for game designers is that the GM's behaviour can be shaped and foreseen.​
Neo-trad game designs are those that shift GM to or toward a role taken on by a player. At the least there are rules that are expected to constrain and compel GM's voice in the ongoing negotiation of play. No doubt the landscape is diverse and there are other hallmarks, too. I suggest that this one is central.
 
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So I've described the "job to be done" as "counting individual acts toward resolution of an arc" and "ways to say when enough has been done toward a goal." I might be misreading your post to have a tone of disagreement: if that is on the matter of scale, I would argue that the fundamental job done, and consequential distinctions between members of this family of mechanics, don't turn on that.
Well, I interpret SCs and Clocks as being more BINDERS ON THE GM than anything else. The problem I see with 5e (as an example) is that there's really nothing like that in place. Not only does the GM get to present any sort of situation she desires to the players, but she also gets complete arbitrary say over what the win cons are. Its not even a 'game', it is simply "when I feel like I've made you roll however many dice I feel like, then I'll tell you if you won or lost and what the consequences are."

So, 4e SCs in particular, exist to defeat the above. The GM must declare "this is a level 5 complexity 4 challenge" and from that moment onward the win cons and stakes are set (I'd say the players may, informally in 4e, have ways to up the stakes, but the GM is bound). I don't think 'momentum' as such is central to this, though the way you have just described it above may be consonant with what I'm talking about. Still, our evaluation criteria are probably rather different, I'm not sure.

BitD clocks are pretty similar to SCs IMHO. In fact I suggested that they were filling the same role way back when BitD first appeared, but I got told I was out of my mind. So, I dunno, maybe we agree in some fashion.
The 4e DMG2 has the most to say on the scale and breadth of skill challenges. "You can even use a structure challenge as the framework for a whole section of an adventure, or even the entire adventure." The "War By Other Means" case study "represents the player characters’ efforts to oversee and perhaps influence the negotiations as they try to keep matters from devolving into violence."

But compare with the looser structure of momentum points in L5R, which counts only successes. Also counting failures as 4e does has consequences for play.
Sure, as does the push/pull architecture of BitD clocks, which can count in either direction. I think there is considerable room to consider the merits of each design and which specific sorts of game/play it serves best. I felt like the SC is a bit more 'solid' structure than the clock, which is maybe best for highly fluid situations where you have direct opposition.
You mention tactical and operational concerns, and strategic... a wide range. As examples, Long-Term Project and Faction clocks can span sessions.

I would differentiate BitD clocks from momentum points and SCs on the basis that normally only player characters can earn momentum points or SC successes/fails, but BitD clocks are generally driven by other things. In terms of structure and potential, though, they're part of the same family of mechanics.
Yes, BitD allows for clocks that are imposed on the PCs and largely track things that are somewhat out of the control of the PCs. BitD is a game where the character's are weak and oppressed. Its about 'fighting the system', whereas 4e is about big heroes doing epic heroic deeds. So they have different needs in that sense.
Good point. The way dangers trigger grim portents that herald the impending doom is a kind of clock. They're looser than the other examples I chose, and while player characters will no doubt form goals relating to them and ultimately drive them, to my mind they stand as an outlier. Still, they do exemplify the general job to do - when has the badness gone far enough to trigger the end?
This could be looked at in terms of a history of Narrativist game design. Fronts and dangers were devised by VB for Apocalypse World. Some other PbtA games adopted this design, and then 4e introduced SCs as an encounter mechanism which was extrapolated a bit to cover higher level concerns (though I would say not much used in that capacity). BitD then introduced clocks as a bit looser but analogous construct. AW 2e has applied that design to threats, though AW didn't really need a 'clock' to drive its more tactical level of play (I guess you could map threats at that level though if you wished).
Momentum mechanics speak to a contract between participants as to what equals enough. When have we done enough to navigate through the Forest of Neverlight? When have we done enough to find the Mastermind, persuade the Duke, and so on. They constrain and compel... in partricular constraining and compelling GM. Desiring to do that is one sign of a neo-trad design: it's not just - no rule zero - it's here's some boilerplate for your negotiations.
Sure, but I'm not sure I'd attach all that to a 'culture of play'. "Neo-Trad" to me signifies a high degree of focus on player-curated character arcs and a focus on enacting player-envisaged plots and action based on that. Certainly a clock/SC could be useful there in terms of structuring how the GM approaches enacting her side of that. However, I think it would potentially be equally useful in trad play as a way of constructing a gamist structure for challenge development. I'm not sure how useful it is in a more Sim sense, but undoubtedly there are situations where it is a useful tool in the box.

So, I see these mechanics as being broadly applicable to a wide variety of types of game, though not every technique will work well in every case (clocks might, for example be pretty awesome in classic Gygaxian gamist play as an alternative to things like wandering monsters, but I think SCs would generally be a bit rigid there).
 

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