TSR The Dreams in Gary's Basement

[Parmandur]

"multiple TSR alums verified she kept trophies of people she fired" isn't enough evidence to at least consider that she might have done that?

But who, specifically? As I said, Meltzer is not someone who I would particularly trust on the topic of Williams or, frankly, any woman considering what happened with him In the end.

As to the Hendrix story, it does look like Williams was at UC Berkeley around the right time for it to be plausible.

 

[Mistwell]

But who, specifically? As I said, Meltzer is not someone who I would particularly trust on the topic of Williams or, frankly, any woman considering what happened with him In the end.

As to the Hendrix story, it does look like Williams was at UC Berkeley around the right time for it to be plausible.

The source for that quote ISN'T Frank. That's the quote they produced when they said they couldn't verify Frank's claim about Jimi Hendrix, but they did find multiple TSR alum sources said that about her trophies of employees she'd fired.

So again, how many sources is enough before people are not harassed for considering the possibility it might be a true claim? Give me a number. Or do you need to personally vet each source before people can freely consider the possibility without it being implied they're wrong for doing so?

 

[Parmandur]

The source for that quote ISN'T Frank. That's the quote they produced when they said they couldn't verify Frank's claim about Jimi Hendrix, but they did find multiple TSR alum sources said that about her trophies of employees she'd fired.

Like who...? And what trophies specifically...?

 

[Mistwell]

Like who...? And what trophies specifically...?

Ask the creators of the documentary?

I mean, is this a standard that was used earlier in this thread when Sacrosanct said, "According to sources, nearly every TSR employee preferred working for her over Gary." That claim went by with no issue for you despite it being a claim about HUNDREDS of people with "sources" from an anonymous person on an internet message board, and you have an issue with "multiple sources" about this one person from the actual known filmmakers of a documentary?

This is why I keep asking what the threshold is for people to freely discuss THE POSSIBILITY the claim might be true without the implication they're doing something wrong for even discussing it. There seem to be low standards for refuting a claim about Williams but high standards for raising a claim about Williams, and I am asking what point it becomes acceptable to engage in this speculation about the history of the hobby without ongoing pushback.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think everyone gets carried away when they take a side. Williams was a wealthy powerful woman in the 80s. She almost certainly did horrible things to get there and stay there, but probably wasn't as bad as what you'd hear from men when they're being critical of her.

She was also a person, and almost certainly had many admirable qualities to go with her negative ones. And for awhile, she managed D&D better than it had been managed before her.

 

[billd91]

Ask the creators of the documentary?

I mean, is this a standard that was used earlier in this thread when Sacrosanct said, "According to sources, nearly every TSR employee preferred working for her over Gary." That claim went by with no issue for you despite it being a claim about HUNDREDS of people with "sources" from an anonymous person on an internet message board, and you have an issue with "multiple sources" about this one person from the actual known filmmakers of a documentary?

This is why I keep asking what the threshold is for people to freely discuss THE POSSIBILITY the claim might be true without the implication they're doing something wrong for even discussing it. There seem to be low standards for refuting a claim about Williams but high standards for raising a claim about Williams, and I am asking what point it becomes acceptable to engage in this speculation about the history of the hobby without ongoing pushback.

The difference here is we have a trail thanks to Ben Riggs. He cites John Rateliff for the statement that people preferred working under her to Gygax and the Blumes. The other story you're peddling is, until you put us on a real trail, is apocryphal.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Second, "multiple TSR alums verified she kept trophies of people she fired" isn't enough evidence to at least consider that she might have done that?

Maybe. Who are those sources and where were their interviews documented?

Right now it seems to me the evidence she didn't do these things is "she's a woman and the men did some bad things too."

No idea why you'd think this. It's not from me at any rate. That's not the evidence I'm using. I'm referring to Riggs and all of sources cited within there. If you're inferring or insinuating that I said "she's a woman and the men did some bad things too." as my "evidence", that's poor form, insulting, and flat out false. I resent the implication that I pulled the "sexist card" as the only way to make a point. I'm simply pointing out how a certain demographic of people only heard Gary's side and have been calling her the most evil person in D&D history for decades while completely ignoring how Gary did just as bad if not worse behavior because they only heard Gary's side, which is going to have obvious bias.

That's, to me, not really anything beyond "be cautious." OK, that's wise to be cautious.

which is what I said. To be cautious and take things with a grain of salt.

But how many people saying she did something specific and bad is enough before people are all least going to feel free to discuss she might in fact have done that bad thing, regardless of other people being bad?

I don't know. Let's start with who are these people saying this? That's pretty important. If it's a bunch of Bears fans talking about the Packers, I'd question that a bit (to use an analogy).

The difference here is we have trail thanks to Ben Riggs. He cites John Rateliff for the statement that people preferred working under her to Gygax and the Blumes. The other story you're peddling is, until you put us on a real trail, is apocryphal.

That's it. Where are the interviews, who were they with, and where is it documented. Hearsay is a dangerous thing, and if we're going to give credence to rumors and hearsay, who said it and where it was documented is probably important.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Having read several books on the subject, Williams wasn't evil. She was a person and she had flaws like all of us. She also helped people/employees.

Like Gary she wanted to keep the company going but ended up being an inept leader and it failed.

IMO, At the end of the day she helped stab him in the back and had a bad attitude about several subjects pertaining to her field of work (TTRPGs). It wouldn't surprise me if she kept trophies of her foes demise.

And as someone else said it was business in the 80s. "Greed is good" and you tended to step on people to get power. Hasn't really changed since.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I don't think anyone is trying to rehab her, only to put things into proper context. And I'd be cautious before making a decision one way or the other because you have to realize who is doing the talking about her. Stories like this came from a person who has a personal vendetta against her, right? I mean, if you (general you) was talking with Gary, all you'd hear is how much of a devil she was and how great Gary is, and then you end up making comments on the internet 40 years later defending Gary as if he were a saint and calling Lorraine the devil...

But the truth is much more complex. According to sources, nearly every TSR employee preferred working for her over Gary. I think that speaks volumes. And Gary did some pretty awful things in how he treated people himself.

I'm always skeptical of one-sided stories.

TDIGB is definitely a very one-sided account of Lorraine Williams. I might also point out that it only briefly mentions what we know to be endemic poor financial management by TSR.

On the whole, I think that while it provides very little new information, it puts it together in a nice presentation and has some solid interviews. For me, the big "I didn't know that" moment was Flint Dille's discussion of the Scepter of Seven Souls project. According to him, Flint and Gary were working on this project (unclear whether it was going to be a movie or a series) that would've followed the protagonists as they travelled from one TSR world to another (e.g., from D&D to Boot Hill to Top Secret and so on). I tend to take things Dille says with a grain of salt, however.

 

[Clint_L]

It is true that Lorraine Williams could be difficult to work with. We have plenty of first-hand accounts. It is also true that she did many kind things. We have plenty of first-hand accounts. It is definitely true that almost every ex-employee who worked for both and has gone on the record preferred the Williams regime over the previous one at TSR.

People are complicated. There are few real life supervillains or superheroes. And there is more than a hint of misogyny in many of the anti-Williams diatribes. One thing I will say is that there is abundant evidence (c.f. Jon Peterson) that TSR dies in 1985 without Lorraine Williams, and I am thankful she kept it going long enough for WotC to buy it.

Going back to the OP, if the documentary is high enough quality, it would be pretty cool for WotC to make a distribution deal with the creator and offer it as a link via DnDBeyond. I would love to see DDB offer archival material as part of the free membership; I think that would be great for the hobby.