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Recurring silly comment about Apocalypse World and similar RPGs

clearstream

(He, Him)
I know, right. Why didn't the DW authors follow the 5e DMG example more closely?
I feel that I can rightly say I know the DMG rules more thoroughly than most in this thread, and I find in them high utility. Addressing a wide range of cases that matter to play. Including some that are crucial. Anyone who wants to fight me on this, I'm willing and ready.

More to the point, perhaps DW does its job as well as it does irrespective of how well or badly another game text does?
 

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loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
RE: "scene framing and other jargon"

Honestly, in my experience, the greatest strength of AW and her offspring is that I can just... play the damn game. Do what I think my character would do, react the way I think my character would react, without worrying where it will lead me and be more or less assured that interesting things will happen.

In sharp contrast to that, I'm playing in a V:tM campaign right now, ran by a GM I greatly respect. I've tried to do the same, just embrace my character and see where it will take me. It sucked. Things went nowhere. There was exactly one interesting scene, and even that happened only because I messaged the GM between sessions with my idea.

I basically had to take a director stance and start making decisions not from the perspective of what my character would do but what I the player would want to see
 


Why is all this talk about dungeon crawling??

Does anyone have complaints about Monster Hearts???

What dungeon can compete with the horrors of High School??
As a serious answer, I think due the similar subject matter of Dungeon World and D&D it makes more sense to compare how they handle similar situations. It also probably makes Dungeon World more prone to people trying to play it like it was D&D and then getting frustrated because that doesn't work.

Monster Hearts is so obviously a completely different thing that such confusion is far less likely, and direct comparisons are harder to make.
 

pemerton

Legend
As a serious answer, I think due the similar subject matter of Dungeon World and D&D it makes more sense to compare how they handle similar situations. It also probably makes Dungeon World more prone to people trying to play it like it was D&D and then getting frustrated because that doesn't work.
I've bolded what seem to me to be the two key phrases.

DW leans heavily into D&D tropes, especially classic D&D - Halfling thieves, Dwarven fighters, righteous paladins, spell memorisation, etc. (In this respect there is some resemblance to Torchbearer 2e.)

This is the subject-matter resemblance.

But the process of play - "how they handle . . . situations" - is completely different. (And DW is in this respect also very different from TB2e.) DW is not D&D but with a simpler/smoother dice roll system, or a variant PC building system. The GM's authority is different; their role is different; their methodology for framing, for adjudication, for narrating consequences, is different.

I mean, this is the reason to pay DW (or TB2e) rather than B/X D&D.
 

Honestly, in my experience, the greatest strength of AW and her offspring is that I can just... play the damn game. Do what I think my character would do, react the way I think my character would react, without worrying where it will lead me and be more or less assured that interesting things will happen.
In sharp contrast to that, I'm playing in a V:tM campaign right now, ran by a GM I greatly respect. I've tried to do the same, just embrace my character and see where it will take me. It sucked. Things went nowhere. There was exactly one interesting scene, and even that happened only because I messaged the GM between sessions with my idea.

I basically had to take a director stance and start making decisions not from the perspective of what my character would do but what I the player would want to see
Just to clarify - your comment regarding interesting things will happen is that because GM moves via the results of the dice or because you have director stance within AW and her offspring?
 

pemerton

Legend
Just to clarify - your comment regarding interesting things will happen is that because GM moves via the results of the dice or because you have director stance within AW and her offspring?
Not @loverdrive, but her point (I'm pretty sure I've understood it) is that as a player, you don't need to take on "director stance" in AW to have interesting things happen.

My experience of Burning Wheel is exactly the same: all I have to do is play my character, do what they would do, and interesting things happen. It's because of how the GMing - framing, adjudication, consequences - works.
 

There are a few general things we can say about agency across all TTRPGs. Probably the biggest of those things is "who gets the most consequential say over the nature and trajectory of play, players or GM, and how does system facilitate that?"

Then there are specific things we can say inherent to the transparency and potency of premise of a game, its design goals, and how well those are put into effect by the actual experience of the game engine run well and with integrity. So, for instance, take a game that has as a core component of play being "fight for what you believe in." One potential design is:

* Player-handle and conflict-charged situation-intensive. They are myriad, they are impactful, and the incentive structures of system yield a very nice balance of "catch-22-itude" as you move through situations fighting for what you believe. Say, you get boons that work toward advancement and/or perpetuate success, but the blade cuts both ways as all the fighting and boon-spending and fallout/failure (both the fiction of failure and currency related to it) just get you in deeper and deeper until play fully resolves...your character utterly crystallized by your "hand" in this unforgiving tug-of-war at the end of play. We know, without a shadow of a doubt, "what you believe in" because you've been forced to fold, raise, and push all your chips in relentlessly through the span of play.

An alternative design is:

* Player-handle-lite, conflict being intermittent with substantial downtime and pervasive recovery, and incentive structures that either don't interact with "fight for what you believe" or interact awkwardly/obliquely. The way the fiction changes and the way the world-at-large views your character (from "everyman" to patrons, powers, and cosmology) is at the moment-to-moment and accrued discretion of another participant who both judges you and plays your antagonists.





Now the first one of these would be something like Paladin play under Burning Wheel Torchbearer or Dogs in the Vineyard. The second would be Paladin play under AD&D. I would say its a trivial observation, with endless supporting anecdotes stacked on top of each other through decades, that AD&D is extraordinarily low-agency Paladin play when it comes to (a) the general question I proposed at the top and (b) the specific question of a player & table discovering who a character authentically is as they "fight for what they believe in."

This is just one easy example of how sensitive agency is at both the system-neutral, macro question level and at the design goal and implementation level within system. This is as true for the Paladin play paradigm above as it is for things like Social Crawls (can you navigate a nexus of NPC interests and conflicting-goals to extract what you want and/or minimize fallout?) or Dungeon Crawls (can you navigate a nexus of obstacles and their relationships to extract what you want and/or minimize fallout?). And each of those two can be systematized in different ways to achieve less or more agency. Finally, the question of agency isn't one of "which one is more serial, granular, atomized?" Its a question of "to whatever degree the crawl is elided, atomized, or abstracted, how well does the whole of the design fit together so that when implemented in play, both the moment-to-moment experience of the play and the throughline of the play is intimately and unmistakably connected to player inputs and an outgrowth of player inputs."

You can have serial, granular, atomized crawls that are absolutely rubbish in terms of compelling decision-point navigation, player inputs, play outputs being an expression of agency. And you can have the inverse as well. Its about the intersection of brilliant, systematized implementation of design goals and deft execution at the table by the participants.
 
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Not @loverdrive, but her point (I'm pretty sure I've understood it) is that as a player, you don't need to take on "director stance" in AW to have interesting things happen.

My experience of Burning Wheel is exactly the same: all I have to do is play my character, do what they would do, and interesting things happen. It's because of how the GMing - framing, adjudication, consequences - works.
Are consequences laid bare before the dice are rolled?
 

Now the first one of these would be something like Paladin play under Burning Wheel Torchbearer or Dogs in the Vineyard. The second would be Paladin play under AD&D. I would say its a trivial observation, with endless supporting anecdotes stacked on top of each other through decades, that AD&D is extraordinarily low-agency Paladin play when it comes to (a) the general question I proposed at the top and (b) the specific question of a player & table discovering who a character authentically is as they "fight for what they believe in."
I'm beginning to understand why alignment threads and the softer versions of Ideals, Bonds and Flaws of 5e were so contentious.
D&D players who desired a deeper connection to their characters and their relationships with others, as well as virtues and vices only had alignment to lean on which was an early undeveloped system which at best was decide by table and at worst decide by inconsistent DM.
But for those that enjoyed the concept of alignment, despite how thin it was, defended it fiercely (and I was one) because there was nothing else within the game that demanded truth of character so why would I just abandon the only vestige of it within the game.

VtM came along and produced Roads and Paths and the internal battle with the Beast which mechanised the above within the game. I was and am a fan of this within Vampire. It wasn't just left all to the individual player with the hope that he is true and consistent with this character. The rules themselves helped keep players in check, and it didn't lay it all at the feet of the Storyteller.

The modern indie games (which I'm still learning) seem to take that a step further or at the very least polish what has come before.

The question is, how much of that weight does your modern D&D roleplayer want within their game where the quest is to vanquish Tiamat, survive Undermountain or assemble the Rod of 7 Parts?

EDIT: For myself, who plays longer interconnecting campaigns, I welcome such rules.
 
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