D&D General Hit Points. Did 3.0 Or 3.5 Get it Right?

[Stormonu]

The big problem with minionizing is how to properly convey that to the players so they can make intelligent decisions. For'ex, if in one encounter they run into 10 kobold minions that each go down in one hit in the first encounter, but in the next those same 10 kobolds have 35 hp each, how do you effectively relay the difference in those two encounters before the characters jump in and possibly get savaged in the 2nd?

 

[Minigiant]

But it doesn't have to grow as fast as it does in WotC D&D, or as evenly.

It grows as fast as you make it.

And in reality it grows faster than WOTC D&D... In places.

The core problem is competency is not a linear line. There are slow linear slopes, fast quadratic slopes and near plateaus in growth.

 

[Shardstone]

The big problem with minionizing is how to properly convey that to the players so they can make intelligent decisions. For'ex, if in one encounter they run into 10 kobold minions that each go down in one hit in the first encounter, but in the next those same 10 kobolds have 35 hp each, how do you effectively relay the difference in those two encounters before the characters jump in and possibly get savaged in the 2nd?

I tell the players that minion rules are in effect.

 

[Minigiant]

The big problem with minionizing is how to properly convey that to the players so they can make intelligent decisions. For'ex, if in one encounter they run into 10 kobold minions that each go down in one hit in the first encounter, but in the next those same 10 kobolds have 35 hp each, how do you effectively relay the difference in those two encounters before the characters jump in and possibly get savaged in the 2nd?

A clearly described progression.

A commoner is 1HD
A lowly guard is 2HD
A squire is 3 HD
A veteran is 4HD
A knight is 6 HD
An elite knight is 9HD
A royal knight is 12HD
A knight commander is 15HD

etc

 

[Stormonu]

A clearly described progression.

A commoner is 1HD
A lowly guard is 2HD
A squire is 3 HD
A veteran is 4HD
A knight is 6 HD
An elite knight is 9HD
A royal knight is 12HD
A knight commander is 15HD

etc

Well, that works for monster progression, but if for example I wanted the group to face The Evil King and throw in some Knight Minions (stats of 6 HD so they have a decent chance to hit and deal damage, but 1 hp/HD so they go down quickly) so the "Boss" can get in some actions but have some blockers/hp soak, is there a way to key in the players that 1) this fight isn't over their heads and 2) the knights aren't the main threat, but not something to ignore.

@Shardstone 's upfront method would work, but it feels gamist. Is there a more natural way to handle this setup? A modification to the creature's title in some way?

 

[jgsugden]

... D&D isn't a series of perfect, unchanging equations, as your post seems to suggest.

I suggested what now?

They've evolved the underlying structure of the game. The math works better in 5E than in any prior edition. That evolution recognized and balanced several factors. I don't even consider it a matter of opinion to say that 5E is the best rule and design edition we've seen. It is demonstrable for the reasons I, and others, have outlined above.

 

[jgsugden]

The big problem with minionizing is how to properly convey that to the players so they can make intelligent decisions. For'ex, if in one encounter they run into 10 kobold minions that each go down in one hit in the first encounter, but in the next those same 10 kobolds have 35 hp each, how do you effectively relay the difference in those two encounters before the characters jump in and possibly get savaged in the 2nd?

This isn't really a problem around minionizing - it exists without the 4E minion rules as well. If your PCs step into a cavern and see 8 5E goblins, how do they know which are goblins, goblin commoners, goblin bosses, goblin psi brawlers, etc...? The DM drops hints, but I've missed clues that DMs thought were clear before, and players have missed hints I gave them many times. I remember one time when the PCs were sure they were about to enter a huge bear's den even though I'd dropped 30 hints that it was the cave of something more like a dragon.

While I am not a fan of the minion rules of 4E, I did find that players instinctively recognized when they were seeing minions in 4E. It tended to be hard to disguise given the combat design rules/suggestions. Players were on the lookout for it. It was more obvious with the minion rules in 4E than it is for players to detect the difference between weaker and stronger members of the same heritages in 5E.

 

[Pedantic]

This isn't really a problem around minionizing - it exists without the 4E minion rules as well. If your PCs step into a cavern and see 8 5E goblins, how do they know which are goblins, goblin commoners, goblin bosses, goblin psi brawlers, etc...? The DM drops hints, but I've missed clues that DMs thought were clear before, and players have missed hints I gave them many times. I remember one time when the PCs were sure they were about to enter a huge bear's den even though I'd dropped 30 hints that it was the cave of something more like a dragon.

That just sounds like a missing subsystem. Monster recognition feels like one of the primary things something like a knowledge skill should be for. I'd expect that to be in the skill rules, and tied to something like CR, with codified ways to return specific snippets of monster/NPC statblocks.

 

[Voadam]

The math works better in 5E than in any prior edition.

I would say many consider the math of 4e to work better for character balance and monster design and encounter design and magic item costs and magic item-less campaigns.

5e math has an advantage in bound accuracy so it works better in bringing in creatures of CR more than five below APL compared to 4e.

 

[Minigiant]

Well, that works for monster progression, but if for example I wanted the group to face The Evil King and throw in some Knight Minions (stats of 6 HD so they have a decent chance to hit and deal damage, but 1 hp/HD so they go down quickly) so the "Boss" can get in some actions but have some blockers/hp soak, is there a way to key in the players that 1) this fight isn't over their heads and 2) the knights aren't the main threat, but not something to ignore.

@Shardstone 's upfront method would work, but it feels gamist. Is there a more natural way to handle this setup? A modification to the creature's title in some way?

The way 4e did it was have them have different gear. I tend to copy this.

The orc dredge (a minion) has hide armor and a club.

The orc warrior (a minion) has leather armor, a battle axe and a shield.

The orc raider, berserker, bloodrager, shaman, and chieftain don't want hide armor or wield battle-axes. They use 2 handers. An orc sure of himself or herself wields a greataxe. Henchorcs use 1 handers and shields.

Greataxe = Full HP
Battleaxe and Shield = 1 HP
Spear= Caster
Dual Axes= BS

Another way is visuals. I tend to describe minions having the same exact gear is equipment and style. Monsters with actual HP get flair like hairstyles, scars, hair die, or different armor styles.

EDIT: if I say hoplite or legionnaire, it's got 1 hp.