D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Ruin Explorer]

It was soundly rejected in the playtests for that exact reason.

Was it? I know we here generally disliked it, but did WotC give any confirmation re: how it was received?

 

[TwoSix]

Yes, it was the playtest idea of turning paladin divine smite into a bonus action spell that you cast when you hit something, making it work like the other smite spells but forcing the spell limitations on them (components, antimagic, etc). It was soundly rejected in the playtests for that exact reason.

Though to be fair, they could have gone even farther. Make wild shape a series of spells druids cast for free. Make warlock evocations free at will spells. Maybe channel divinity could be a spell clerics get a free casting of. You could also change many of the monster abilities into a spell equivalent (vampire charm casts charm person, doppelgangers use polymorph). We could make spells the currency of power like feats in PF or powers in 4e.

I think this question always boils down to "Do you want spells to exist purely as metagame constructs to hold powers?" or "Do spells exist as discrete concepts within the fiction?" You run into problems when you try and make them be both.

If misty step is a known in-game spell that wizards can trade and teach each other with scrolls and spellbooks, but it's also the same effect that an eladrin can do innately, that's when you run into issues of context. Like, can the eladrin scribe their racial ability onto a scroll to teach to a wizard? Can their innate racial ability be counterspelled? Can they use their sorcerer spell slots to activate their racial ability more often?

 

[Yaarel]

Can the eladrin scribe their racial ability onto a scroll to teach to a wizard? Can their innate racial ability be counterspelled? Can they use their sorcerer spell slots to activate their racial ability more often?

In my view as DM:

An Eladrin who can innately cast Misty Step, also "knows" the spell. An Eladrin who is a Wizard can figure out how to write this down as a Wizard spell in a spellbook.

The UA Counterspell description specifies it can only interrupt a spell that is using a spell component. Therefore, it cant interrupt the Eladrin who is casting Misty Step innately.

An Eladrin can use spell slots if any to additionally cast Misty Step innately.

"Innate spellcasting" is an important concept, and it needs to be explained well in the Glossary.

As a species trait, I prefer the Elf cast every kind of spell "innately", without components. This makes the species appealing to casters as well as to martials.

 

[tetrasodium]

What does that even mean, practically speaking?

Will Tolkien fanboys come and prevent me from playing Hans and Volomyra?

Given the massive influx of new players with more diverse cultural touchstones, are there even enoughTolkien fanboys to make a difference?

"That"? Sometimes specificity is important. In this case you are asking me to elaborate on an assumed interpretation of the word "that"... So I will and it's on you to remember both the couple posts exchanging what is being discussed in addition to clarifying if my assumptions of "that" seem to miss the intended mark.

All of the previously explained"plot armor" supporting dwarves society and civilization with an impenetrable curtain of "nothing to see here" are a big problem for any dwarf concept that's not basically just some flavor of the usual masculine beard beer mining blacksmithing cave dwelling Tolkien dwarf. What little fabric that there is to work with is devoted to propping up gimli and such while the plot armor deflects attention away from developing anything else in service of the usual monolithic tropes.

I think it was earlier in this thread but it could have been another recent thread where someone mentioned how you can invent a new language but if nobody else understands it you've not invented anything. Your two earlier characters don't bring up anything different so inherit mining beards beer and cave cities from Tolkien. Look at the "original" stuff they bring to the table.. boy leaves for war and returns to swear vengeance when his love is killed in his absence is a trope I have no doubt was ancient when the Greeks and Romans were flogging it. Hard/cold hearted clergy who don't want to act?... These be the beer drinking bearded cave dwelling clergy of miners and blacksmiths?.... Princess favored by gods/spirits goes against their parents to travel and learn is a trope that goes back as long as arranged marriages have been a thing.... Morgan Le Fey was taller lacked a beard and probably drank less bear with miners who moonlight as blacksmiths.


In order for dwarven society/civilization to work it needs to be shaped by events outside their mountains that would make the surface fairly unlivable for anyone or the dwarves need to have a technological step up on par with being a step or two up the the kardashev scale∆. The surface might be dangerous at times, but underground fortress living needs zombie apocalypse and standard system apocalypse trope level Kaiju/spirit beast/demon infestation that just is not there. You could say that dwarves are skilled craftsmen, but they lack the zilargo style paranoia to justify holing up in self imposed isolation in what is very much not a dark forest type word. Even if dwarves are a fractional step up like elves it still runs into all the plot armor servicing beards beer and blacksmithing miners to avoid the exploration of anything new that would have supported the fractional step like you could do with elf characters.

You could play PCs with those two generic trope "original" backstories as almost literally any species but in doing so after choosing dwarf as the race you leave the table to fill in beards beer blacksmithing miners everywhere that it might go somewhere

∆each step is absolutely massive, we (humans as a whole) are far from being a type 1 civilization and the even higher steps are almost unimaginable in ways that might as well compare us to storage cave dwellers.

 

[Remathilis]

I think this question always boils down to "Do you want spells to exist purely as metagame constructs to hold powers?" or "Do spells exist as discrete concepts within the fiction?" You run into problems when you try and make them be both.

If misty step is a known in-game spell that wizards can trade and teach each other with scrolls and spellbooks, but it's also the same effect that an eladrin can do innately, that's when you run into issues of context. Like, can the eladrin scribe their racial ability onto a scroll to teach to a wizard? Can their innate racial ability be counterspelled? Can they use their sorcerer spell slots to activate their racial ability more often?

I can see both points. I am highly annoyed by WotC's decision to make NPCs no longer abide by the rules of spellcasting and instead use abilities that look like spells but aren't. But I would also hate if races and classes boil down to just a list of bonus spells you get to cast x per day.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I can see both points. I am highly annoyed by WotC's decision to make NPCs no longer abide by the rules of spellcasting and instead use abilities that look like spells but aren't. But I would also hate if races and classes boil down to just a list of bonus spells you get to cast x per day.

Totally agree with the NPC spell area, and I don't think anyone is saying that all species features should be spells, merely that it is probably easier and more coherent to represent innate magic of the elves with such. But I think we need to talk about what elves should have besides of that. If all they have is darkvision, trance and spells, that is kinda boring. Like if they no longer have dex bonus, should their superior agility and coordination still be represented somehow?

 

[Hussar]

I can see both points. I am highly annoyed by WotC's decision to make NPCs no longer abide by the rules of spellcasting and instead use abilities that look like spells but aren't. But I would also hate if races and classes boil down to just a list of bonus spells you get to cast x per day.

See, now, that doesn'T bother me in the slightest. An NPC wizard that has no actual spells or spell list? Fantastic.

Because NPC's serve a different purpose. They're likely only going to be on screen for a single encounter and then gone. I don't have to deal with them again and again and again. Nor do I have to worry terribly if some monster is a bit over or under powered. Again, it's not going to matter in the long run.

It does matter, however, when it's characters because making things "non-spells" is specifically a power up for casters. Plus the plethora of ways to gain these "non-spells" becomes such a huge PITA. Take something as simple as a FIrbolg's speak with animals power. All beasts can understand what firbolg's say, even though the firbolg can't understand them.

Now, do you allow a Firbolg player to use Persuasion checks on every beast the party meets? That's what I discovered. The FIrbolg player simply used persuasion checks EVERY SINGLE TIME they met any beasts and then, because he had a very high Persuasion skill, would routinely score in the mid 20's on a check.

So, how do I resolve that? There's like zero guidance given for that sort of thing.

If, instead, Firbolg's could cast Speak with Animals X times per day, then it burns actions, it's far more balanced and becomes a lot less of a problem. After all, now the FIrbolg can use things like Command on any Beast without needing to cast Speak with Animals first. All these "non-spells" start having weird interactions with actual spells because the game isn't balanced around the idea that you get free spell effects all the bloody time.

They already make everything in the game a caster, why pretend that we need to have non-spell spells? Make it all spells and be done with it. Particuarly racial abilities. Racial abilities should ALWAYS be spells to recreate magical effects. Full stop.

 

[Micah Sweet]

dragonborn lack a setting presence they feel empty, this angers me they are popular on look and mechanic alone without the final part.

but what would they even be, high and wood as at least some more presence, what is the difference between hill and mountain or lightfoot and stout something that feels more important?

No heritage can have a proper setting presence unless that setting was designed incorporating them. In the history of official D&D, only 4e's PoLand does that for Dragonborn and Tieflings (although Planescape for tieflings is something of an exception). Because WotC won't make a new setting, and won't support PoLand, this issue is unlikely to be resolved officially.

 

[Micah Sweet]

why can't we have a new setting that just takes the 4e dragonborn lore and makes it easy to find?

Because WotC is afraid to make new settings. You absolutely can have such things from anyone else making D&D content.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Get rid of subraces. Non-humans can have cultures just like humans, but there is no reason to make it mechanical, and doing so would be problematic. An exception could be made in case of obvious and significant physical differences, but perhaps in those cases it might be easier to write those as full separate species. For example tritons are not human subspecies, so why should aquatic elves be an elven subspecies? (Not that we need both tritons and tritons but elves; one aquatic hominid species seems sufficient.)

Triton really should be a human subspecies, just as much as drow are to the elves. The current social zeitgeist just objects to this on grounds that have nothing to be with verisimilitude or design.