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D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
to merge ideas rarely works without doing so at the beginning and we are not at the beginning at all.
Even so, conceptually, the "innate" magic of the Sorcerer can comfortably be psionic kinesis: pyromancy=pyrokinetics, etcetera.

There are zero spell components. The magic is truly innate.

Meanwhile, this Psion uses Warlock chassis while converting slots into Short Rest spell points. So the Sorcerer gains superior, more flexible mechanics.

Moving the Sorcerer as a subclass into the Psion, doesnt kill Sorcerer. It actually allows the Sorcerer concept to function more ably.


also even a short glance at wikipeida lists way more options than pure force
The point of moving Force into Dunomancy, is to disentangle it from the Elementalism in Evocation and Transmutation.


I have no idea what to do with sorceror thematically or mechanically past it should be the simple and easy-to-use caster as that is a niche we are not presently possessing all that well
With the Psion, the Sorcerer subclass grants access to the Elemental spell list, for Fireball and so on. The Psion base lacks these "flashy" spells. This Sorcerer also has the normal psionic spells, relating to Force-Dunumancy, Prescience-Teleportation, Shapeshifting-Healing.
 

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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Neither class should be a subclass of the other. Because both classes exist due to narrative reasons and not mechanical ones.

The narrative of the Wizard is that they can learn to tap into the arcane weave to generate magical effects. The narrative of the Sorcerer is that they have a magical wellspring already within them (based upon their ancestry and bloodline). Neither of those two stories can or should fall under the other. They should remain separate.

What SHOULD happen (in my opinion) is that Sorcerers should no longer be said to use Arcane magic (nor the Warlock for that matter). Arcane magic comes from being able to tap into the weave of magical power that permeates the cosmos and across the world via the Astral and Ethereal planes. To do so, you need to learn how to do it. Wizards do. Bards do. Artificers do. They all use (dare I say) "science" and "experiment" to figure out how to access this weave-- mystical words, motions, sounds, harmonies, objects etc. that can let a person tap into the weave of arcane magic.

Sorcerers don't do that. There's no learning involved. They aren't tapping into anything. They just have instead this "wellspring" of magic within them. But if they aren't accessing the weave, why would we call this magic Arcane? We shouldn't. They aren't the same thing. The magic of Sorcerers should be of a different type of magic than what Wizards, Bards, and Artificers use. For my money, all the classes that just have magic within them here on the Prime plane... the Sorcerer, the Psion, the Monk, the Druid, the Barbarian, the Ranger... they are each one of the lucky ones who were born into the Prime plane being able to access the power and energy of the world itself (including within themselves, as they are a part of the world.) For my money... they are all wielder of Primal magic. Magic of the Prime. Half of them draw their magic from the earth and nature (Druid, Barbarian, Ranger)... the others draw their magic that bubbles up from within themselves (the Sorcerer, Psion, and Monk).

That being said... if folks felt it was necessary to separate the magic drawn from the world itself from the magical spark found within a person (in other words, the idea that "sentient creatures" are not just a part of the world and thus has magic within them just like the world does... but rather that they are special and separate from it and thus their magic is too)... then you could keep Primal magic for the D, B & R and create a new category of magic (say Innate or Mystical or Psionic) for the Sorcerer, Psion, and Monk.

That of course then leaves Cleric, Paladins, and Warlocks... all of whom form a connection to a god, a creature, or a tenet from the Outer Planes via worship, bargaining, or having just such a conviction in something that a path opens before them. These three classes are all granted magical ability from an outside force. We can keep calling it Divine power, but you could also say it is Planar power.

If you did this... actually made a more definitive narrative around these (dare I say) "power sources" and actually cleaned up the exceedingly wishy-washy phrase "Arcane Magic" into something more definitive... you would absolutely have a better chance at separating the Sorcerer and the Wizard from each other once and for all. (And would finally hopefully cut back on the number of people who think the Sorcerer, Wizard, and Warlock are all interchangeable and should be merged or subclasses under or into each other.)
 
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Horwath

Legend
Ugh. The last thing wizards need is more resource management. If wizards were put under sorcerers, sorcery points should be something that subclass doesn't get.

Or, alternately, put sorcerers, wizards and warlocks as subclasses under a "mage" umbrella, similar to what the first One D&D UA did. But to get all of the variety of existing subclasses, you'd need to create a third tier of specializations, like I gather Shadow of the Demon Lord does. But that's major surgery and something to save for sixth edition or a 5E fantasy heartbreaker at someone's home table using the SRD.
agree, just add clerics, druids and bards to the mage list.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
Even so, conceptually, the "innate" magic of the Sorcerer can comfortably be psionic kinesis: pyromancy=pyrokinetics, etcetera.

There are zero spell components. The magic is truly innate.

Meanwhile, this Psion uses Warlock chassis while converting slots into Short Rest spell points. So the Sorcerer gains superior, more flexible mechanics.

Moving the Sorcerer as a subclass into the Psion, doesnt kill Sorcerer. It actually allows the Sorcerer concept to function more ably.



The point of moving Force into Dunomancy, is to disentangle it from the Elementalism in Evocation and Transmutation.



With the Psion, the Sorcerer subclass grants access to the Elemental spell list, for Fireball and so on. The Psion base lacks these "flashy" spells. This Sorcerer also has the normal psionic spells, relating to Force-Dunumancy, Prescience-Teleportation, Shapeshifting-Healing.
it is thematics, sorcerers have the same stereotype of half elf players being more interested in linage than in the character they play.
I read the thematics for the mystic and it was like coming home.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Not at all. "Sorcerer" is nothing more than an arcane caster whose magic comes from within instead of studying, etc.

What identified a sorcerer is metamagic, which this subclass has and is the only one with it. Wizards don't get it, just this subclass. Any other wizard is stuff without it, especially since we don't use the Metamagic feat.
Your "sorcerer" lacks the narratives of the sorcerer, and still studies and needs an spellbook. That's not a sorcerer.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
it is thematics, sorcerers have the same stereotype of half elf players being more interested in linage than in the character they play.
I read the thematics for the mystic and it was like coming home.
The Psion class can have the psionic Mystic flavor. The Sorcerer subclass can have the Sorcerer flavor.

Relatedly, I feel the Psion class should allow the player to pick any mental ability for the Casting Ability: Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.

The stereotypical Half Elf Sorcerer would still maintain its lineage and flavor.


I am flexible about the following, but I wouldnt give the Dragon flavor to the Psion. I would give it to the Warlock class as a Dragon Pact. The Warlock has great mechanics for the concept, including an inherited lineage from an ancestral pact. This pact is with a powerful extraplanar Dragon, such as Celestial Dragon Bahamut or member of his court or with the Infernal Dragon Tiamat or member of her court.
 
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Stormonu

Legend
Back in 3E, when you prechose spells to put in your spell slots, the ability of the Sorcerer to spontaneously cast was a much stronger ability. 5E's sorceror's points changes this to the ability to instead change the level of the spell - and add metamagics.

I think the wizard should still get access to metamagic, but it should be more limited in some way (maybe only PB spell points exclusively for this use). I wouldn't mind a partial return to prememorized spells as per 1E-3E, with maybe the ability to switch to a spontaneous spell at some cost. Clerics could swap to domain spells spontaneously, the bard may get a handful they can spontaneously cast based on college, and wizards based on specialty. Sorcerers would gain back their ability to do any of their known spells spontaneously. Not sure how the Warlock would be handled in this manner, though I'd be inclined they'd be spontaneous as well.
 



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