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How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

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I'm not really following the rune circle discussion, I think I have already forgotten the context in which it was introduced...

But if the game has some sort of skill or such that is a measure of the character's understanding of magic stuff (like arcana in D&D) I think whether the character understands what the rune circle does should probably be somehow related to their capability in that skill, either via a roll or by just by the skill rank.
 

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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Figuring out the AC usually happens in the first round of combat as soon as the players make their rolls to hit an opponent, and the DM says one of three things- miss, defender defends or hit. Once the players hear defender defends from the DM, you know what the opponent's AC is.
What is this "defender defends" narration? For 5e, I generally make the players figure out AC over time, but I've never used a narration like that. It's either "miss" or "hit" (with appropriate taunting when they miss, of course :) ).
 

What is this "defender defends" narration? For 5e, I generally make the players figure out AC over time, but I've never used a narration like that. It's either "miss" or "hit" (with appropriate taunting when they miss, of course :) ).
I often describe miss as a defender parrying or blocking the blow with a shield.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
I often describe miss as a defender parrying or blocking the blow with a shield.
I do that too, on a miss. But I'm not sure where @Corinnguard is getting "They'll know what the AC is when the defender defends narration happens". It sounds like they maybe they narrate differently when the attack roll exactly hits the AC?
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
DM: Because you the players clearly understand the purpose of the runic circle, the wizard understands that it's a summoning circle.
DM: No, wait. It's a teleportation circle.
DM: No, wait. It's a circle used for ritual sacrifice.
DM: No, wait. It's a circle used for protection.
DM: No, wait. It's a circle used by giant clerics to stand in when communing with their gods.
DM: Crap! Which of those ways was the one that you all clearly understood it to be? I'm going to need to know in order to make the circle do that instead of one of the other various ways it could be used.
I don't understand this post relative to the one you quoted.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don't understand this post relative to the one you quoted.
@hawkeyefan was saying that he would just tell the players what the runic circle was, because the players have a clear idea of what it is. How he would do it is justify it somehow via a PC with an appropriate class or background and have the information come out that way. My response was to show that there isn't really a "clear" thing it could or would be, since there are several options.
 

I do that too, on a miss. But I'm not sure where @Corinnguard is getting "They'll know what the AC is when the defender defends narration happens". It sounds like they maybe they narrate differently when the attack roll exactly hits the AC?
In my role-playing group, whenever a PC's attack roll exactly hits the AC on an opponent, the DM will say 'Defender defends' to let everyone know that the opponent's armor has turned aside the PC's attack. Likewise, whenever the opponent's attack roll exactly hits a PC's AC, the player will say 'Defender Defends' for pretty much the same reason. My group has been using this term since I joined them back in 2021.

So once the DM says 'Defender Defends', the party will know that opponent's AC. :)
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
There is no meta-gaming.

Consider: The GM can tell the players, "As you walk outside, you see the sun bright in the sky. It's a lovely day!" It's not metagaming for the players to act on that information - eg to choose to leave their rain cloaks behind, so as to avoid encumbrance from them.

Likewise, if the fiction is apposite - eg a character educated in runic matters looking at a runic circle - then the GM can tell the player of that character, "You see a runic circle. It looks to you like a symbol of protection." Or even, "You see a runic circle. You recognise it as a runic circle."

When it might be appropriate for the GM to say such a thing depends upon various considerations, including some that vary from system to system. I take up some of these matters below.

Why not?

In my Torchbearer 2e game, two of the PCs started with significant Lore Master skill. In my Burning Wheel game, it's pretty common for wizardly PCs to start with Aura Reading and/or Symbology. In 4e D&D it is mandatory for wizards to start with Arcana skill.

There is no reason to think that a runic circle would be especially mysterious to these PCs.

In each of these games, a runic circle is something the GM might introduce into a scene, and mention to the players. The principles by which the GM might then dispense information about it is varied. Suppose a player asks "What do the runes say?" the GM can simply reply (in 4e D&D and BW, this is "saying 'yes'"; in Torchbearer this would be rewarding a "good idea", of reading the runes). Or can call for a check, if something is at stake in whether or not the PC recognises the symbols.

But this is all about game play. There is no premise that PCs educated in the magical arts will, in general, be ignorant of runes.

And what a skill check represents can vary across and within these games. BW can be particularly subtle in this respect, because of the way its rules for combining skills into a single check work. There is no reason in general to think that a check represents a character acquiring new knowledge, or cudgelling their wits. On the other hand, in 4e D&D an Arcana check may well represent the acquiring of new knowledge (by "identifying" the magic), and the same is true of Aura Reading in BW.

Whether or not there is a mystery here is entirely in the control of the GM. There are any number of other possible mysteries in the neighbourhood, too, such as - Who inscribed the runic circle? Why here? What were they seeking protection from? Or what were they seeking to protect? Etc, etc.

There is nothing inherently more exciting about learning the nature of the circle than learning any of these other things, and for my part I incline to agree with @hawkeyefan that learning the nature of the circle is towards the bottom in this respect, because in itself it does not tend to propel play forward as these other things might tend to.

This is a very prescriptive account of how to GM a RPG, even for D&D. It's not one that appeals to me either as GM or as player. There are many reasons why this is so, but one of them is the suggestion that all interesting information should be gated behind low-stakes skill checks.
So we're back, unsurprisingly, to this whole argument just being preference. Some folks like it one way, some another. Everyone is right.
 

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