How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[aramis erak]

"Outlier" is a statistical (and thus numerical) term.

It's an unspecific and imprecise term even in statistics. It commonly is used for deviation > 2 StDev, but also sometimes used (in narrow distributions) for anything outside the range defined by the two ends of mean, median, and mode (since one of them will be inside the other two)...

Fair enough. I play games based on B/X where that isn't the case, but I haven't looked at the original in a while.

BX doesn't limit the weapons of fighters nor elves, either.
It's not until the Master Set of BECMI that weapon masteries are introduced in the Basic lines.
Troy Denning didn't include weapon proficiencies in the Big Black Basic, leaving them to Aaron Alston to put in cyclopedia.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Commoners? Experts?

Commoners were the exception I referenced. Look at Expert and see if you think that's an ordinary, rank and file character. They just aren't combatants. In other respects, they're as capable as a lot of versions of rogues.

Use the whole list please, not just the one you think support your point.

I gave you the one exception. If that isn't enough, get over it.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure it does. We discussed it earlier in this thread. “Pretty difficult” can be interpreted many ways, for example.

Holy conflation Batman! We aren't talking about numbers vs. descriptions dude. We're talking about using natural language to describe the rules. Those aren't even close to being the same.

Look at some of the rules in 5e that are persistently interpreted differently by many people… things like stealth and background features are interpreted different ways by different people.

5e is actually a pretty poor example. It was deliberately written vaguely and with holes in the rules in order to push rulings over rules.

In any case, your argument holds no water, because "Hard Move" is meaningless without the natural language you say people interpret differently, so your jargon filled games are just as likely to be interpreted differently by different people.

Sure there was. @Corinnguard and @Micah Sweet certainly did so. You did as well.

I never saw them do it, but I may have missed it. They can speak for themselves. As for me, not once did I do so. And in fact said the opposite at least once.

It’s not a problem… we just disagree.

You can disagree that the sun is a star, too. You just can't be right about this. Disagreeing with the principal in general isn't the same as telling you that you are doing it wrong or being upset, or hell even caring, that you do it that way.

Actually, in the moment of play, yes it is. The player can either accept it or not in that moment. Then, they can address it with the GM and the other players.

So what. I didn't say that agreement or disagreement wasn't there. I said it's not as simple as agreement or disagreement, and I am correct about that. There's a lot more to it.

Also, if we’re in a general TTRPG thread, perhaps a wider experience than solely D&D and its derivatives can be expected. Perhaps even should be expected?

This is a Strawman of what I said. I didn't argue that other games shouldn't be expected. I said that if you're talking about a minor RPG, a lot of people aren't going to remember.

 

[Maxperson]

This is not correct. The to-hit tables are on p 74 of the DMG. A 0-level guard needs an 11 to hit AC 10, and a 20 to hit AC 1. Whether they need an ordinary 20 or a natural 20 to hit AC 0 is a decision the GM has to make about the interpretation of the combat table, as explained on p 82 under the heading "Progression on the Combat Tables".

That distinction makes no difference to what I said. That 1 better to hit ACs 10 to 1 doesn't put the fighter head and shoulders above that guard.

 

[Maxperson]

You don't have to understand what bounded accuracy means to play 5e and understand it.

Right. That piece of jargon doesn't appear in the 5e rules.

 

[Maxperson]

I've never played Masks, but I understand that it is about inexperienced Teen Titans/New Mutants-esque superheroes.

How does that not push the special talents of the PCs?

 

[Maxperson]

But why would you assume that my hypothetical GM narrating the magic circle of imprisonment hasn't done that?

Probably because in the example that @hawkeyefan gave, the DM didn't. In his example he said he would just give that knowledge to the players and come up with the justification later. That's not the DM giving thought to who would or would not know it and then deciding.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Commoners were the exception I referenced. Look at Expert and see if you think that's an ordinary, rank and file character. They just aren't combatants. In other respects, they're as capable as a lot of versions of rogues.



I gave you the one exception. If that isn't enough, get over it.

A blacksmith is an expert. Hardly the SFHP I was describing. Heck, the other NPC classes aren't exactly special snowflakes either.

And if you don't like having this discussion with me, just don't respond. No need to be rude.

 

[Maxperson]

It's not up to the GM to decide what the PC knows in 5e D&D. The GM describes the scene and then asks the players what they are going to do next. The players then declare what the characters are going to do in the scene, and if any of their actions require a skill check, the GM will ask them to roll the dice to see what happens next.

The GM is suppose to help guide the players through an adventure, not dictate their every move by telling them everything they need to know without earning it on their own.

5e also gives advice to the DM to tell the players things that their characters would know.

"As you start to develop your campaign, you'll need to fill in the players on the basics. For easy distribution, compile essential information into a campaign handout. Such a handout typically includes the following material:

Any restrictions or new options for character creation, such as new or prohibited races.

Any information in the backstory of your campaign that the characters would know about. If you have a theme or direction in mind for the campaign, this information could include seeds hinting at that focus.

Basic information about the area where the characters are starting, such as the name of the town, important locations in and around it, prominent NPCs they'd know about, and perhaps rumors that point to trouble that's brewing."

Passive knowledge checks also allow the DM to inform the player when his PC knows something without the player stating an action.

 

[pemerton]

It's not up to the GM to decide what the PC knows in 5e D&D. The GM describes the scene and then asks the players what they are going to do next. The players then declare what the characters are going to do in the scene, and if any of their actions require a skill check, the GM will ask them to roll the dice to see what happens next.

The GM is suppose to help guide the players through an adventure, not dictate their every move by telling them everything they need to know without earning it on their own.

Here's an example of GM narration, from p 2 of the free 5e D&D Basic PDF:

After passing through the craggy peaks, the road takes a sudden turn to the east and Castle Ravenloft towers before you. Crumbling
towers of stone keep a silent watch over the approach. They look like abandoned guardhouses. Beyond these, a wide chasm gapes, disappearing into the deep fog below. A lowered drawbridge spans the chasm, leading to an arched entrance to the castle courtyard. The chains of the drawbridge creak in the wind, their rust-eaten iron straining with the weight. From atop the high strong walls, stone gargoyles stare at you from hollow sockets and grin hideously. A rotting wooden portcullis, green with growth, hangs in the entry tunnel. Beyond this, the main doors of Castle Ravenloft stand open, a rich warm light spilling into the courtyard.​

I notice that the GM assumes the PCs can recognise Castle Ravenloft, guardhouses (even abandoned, crumbling ones), drawbridges, rusted iron chains, and gargoyles.

What is the principle that forbids the GM from narrating "You see the dragon is trapped inside a circle of imprisonment"?