D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[FrogReaver]

You're not making any sense to me here. You said that it doesn't make sense to have supernatural warrior types alongside mundane ones. But we do. And then its a problem now?

The ones we have are barely above mundane. It’s a matter of degree.

Is this just another martial v. caster disparity thing?

it’s also about the limitations those design restrictions place on thematics.

 

[FrogReaver]

which is nonsense IMO, potent mundane martials can exist, they managed it in 4e after all.

By removing 99% of caster power - which didn’t go over well.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, but I imagine these are cantrips in line with most other 5e cantrips. Not "I can summon to my side any object within miles of my position that I can name, as a first tier character." Because that's how the summoning charm, accio, works. Harry uses it during the Triwizard Tournament, meaning before he's started his NEWT level classes; this is magic relatively ordinary children can cast on the regular.

Hence why I say Harry Potter magic is OP. It compresses all magical effects, even very powerful ones, into indefinite use cantrips.

Yep! Some thematics are just not appropriate for a team based game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, but I imagine these are cantrips in line with most other 5e cantrips. Not "I can summon to my side any object within miles of my position that I can name, as a first tier character." Because that's how the summoning charm, accio, works. Harry uses it during the Triwizard Tournament, meaning before he's started his NEWT level classes; this is magic relatively ordinary children can cast on the regular.

Hence why I say Harry Potter magic is OP. It compresses all magical effects, even very powerful ones, into indefinite use cantrips.

Oh, I agree whole-heartedly. But if you want something in the spirit of the Potter witch/wizard, that won't cause a table flip from the GM or the other players, I think Warmage is the way to go.

 

[Micah Sweet]

but you're not trying to replicate harry potter themselves, you're just trying to replicate the feel of harry potter, a caster who can cast spell after spell and not worry about spell slots or levels, you don't give this caster alohamora on repeat you give them knock, because knock is the spell that exists in DnD, when your player says they want to be thor you don't give them unlimited thunderbolts, flight and a magic hammer cause that's what the character from the movies has/is capable of, you point them in the direction of a tempest cleric or somesuch because that's the sub/class that exists in the game that best fufills that concept.

Of course, some fiddling with the mechanics to better fit a concept is also good. Otherwise you're rejecting anything that's not already in the official books.

 

[Minigiant]

The key is there are 2 popular types of magic users D&D doesn't do.

1) The Harry-potteresque cantrip spammer.
2) The Marvel/DC/Anime mage with a few to a dozen powers that they have extreme control or mastery of due to their closeness to it or their genetic/bloodline

These don't fit the 13 official classes.

Some 3PPs like MHP have made classes for these fantasies. But since 3rd party content is unknown to 50% the community and there is no cross support, the amount of people who have access to this alternatives are low.

Meanwhile the sorcerer lacks the lore of the wizard but functions are an wizard alt when these playstyles are unused.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The key is there are 2 popular types of magic users D&D doesn't do.

1) The Harry-potteresque cantrip spammer.
2) The Marvel/DC/Anime mage with a few to a dozen powers that they have extreme control or mastery of due to their closeness to it or their genetic/bloodline

These don't fit the 13 official classes.

Some 3PPs like MHP have made classes for these fantasies. But since 3rd party content is unknown to 50% the community and there is no cross support, the amount of people who have access to this alternatives are low.

Meanwhile the sorcerer lacks the lore of the wizard but functions are an wizard alt when these playstyles are unused.

This why I push 3pp options whenever I can. We all have to do our part!

 

[Mephista]

The ones we have are barely above mundane. It’s a matter of degree.

it’s also about the limitations those design restrictions place on thematics.

My monk can shoot fire from their fist, foot, or even butt,while flying and exploding. A shadowdancer can teleport and recreate Bad Apple using his mind and an empty wall. Mercy monk can punch the sickness out of someone. Its trivally easy to make a monk subclass based on Jedi with lightsabers and more.

I dunno, my friend. What exactly do you mean by barely above mundane? What exactly is the line, because they're pretty fantastic to me. Same with Barbs - turning into part animals, coming back from the dead, auras of elemental energy...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

but you're not trying to replicate harry potter themselves, you're just trying to replicate the feel of harry potter, a caster who can cast spell after spell and not worry about spell slots or levels, you don't give this caster alohamora on repeat you give them knock, because knock is the spell that exists in DnD, when your player says they want to be thor you don't give them unlimited thunderbolts, flight and a magic hammer cause that's what the character from the movies has/is capable of, you point them in the direction of a tempest cleric or somesuch because that's the sub/class that exists in the game that best fufills that concept.

That was my point.

You're already doing "we're not going to do Harry Potter, just the feel of Harry Potter," and that means actually making it a pure cantrip mage is no longer necessary, at which point you're already choosing just how much to write new things and how much to repurpose old ones.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Have you considered using some actual OSR games to support your point about OSR games?

I did, you just had never heard of it (Mork Borg) . I mentioned other big name games to cover bases (Blades in the Dark for example is often brought up as having that old school, OSR feel, even if it is technically not OSR). But okay. Dungeon Crawl Classics also does not use Vancian Casting, it uses casting as a skill roll.

Now, if you still think I am wrong CAN YOU PROVE IT? Or are you just going to continue telling me I'm wrong without ever bothering to provide counter evidence

And I don't need the majority to agree with me. It is nice if some people do though, and I don't see the fact that many disagree with my preferences as a reason not to talk about them. No one else around here gets told not to talk about what they like, and it's not like I'm bad-mouthing other's people's likes (at least I don't think I am).

I'm not saying you are wrong to talk about. What I am saying is that if you bring up an idea, then defend it by claiming it is merely a subjective opinion, and we KNOW it is a minority opinion with little support... then it is a little weird to keep insisting on the idea because it happens to be your opinion.

Remember, the original thing that started this was the proposal to move the bard, and only the bard, to a Vancian casting system. They were advocating a direct change to the game, not just saying "well, I like Vancian casting" but "we should change the game to bring back Vancian casting". Yes, that is an opinion someone had, and expressed, and I'm not saying they cannot express it. I'm saying that the percentage of people in the DnD community that would ever want to see that is a vanishingly small one. And your defense of that idea so far is "But I like Vancian casting". Which, sure fine, you do you, Level Up sure doesn't use Vancian Casting so I know you aren't using it, and it is not something desired by the community as a whole. And you can't make it desired by the community as whole by simply not carrying what the community wants.