Higher Damage in Monster Manual 3

I have suggested on a couple of boards this quick fix.

For every +3 static bonus, add +1
For every d6, add +1
For every d8, add +2
For every d10, add +3
For every d12, add +4

2d6+3, which averages 10 damage, would become 2d6+6, which averages 13 damage. 30% increase. Roughly what they are prescribing.

Greg Bilisland recommends just doubling the static damage bonus. In the above example the number is the same. I have look at it several monsters to compare these methods, and they are always within 1 or 2 numbers of each other. The doubling method does end up on some of the mobs with a 50% average damage upgrade, but hitting too hard against good pcs has rarely been a problem in 4e.

DarthMouth said:

Someone has somekind of quickfix table for mm1 and 2 ?

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Here's what Greg Bilsland, one of the developers/designers of MM3 suggested in his most recent blog entry:

I feel confident that most older monsters up until about level 10 are performing just fine. It’s only around paragon tier that the damage really needs some adjustments. If you want a quick fix, double the flat damage a monster power deals, or in the case of a brute, triple it. In other words, if you’ve got a creature that deals 2d10 + 5 damage, have it deal 2d10 + 10 damage, or 2d10 + 15 if it’s a brute. Adding more dice also works, but it also makes the damage more swingy.

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Hmm, how do you properly reference uploaded files? - Ah, got it!

This is the most recent incarnation of the revised table that resulted from my (pre-MM3) calculations. Note that I've chosen the min/max damage values more or less arbitrary. Often you won't find a simple (multiple dice + constant) expression to exactly represent these values.

It's not really that important, though, since it's mostly about the average damage. It only affects the damage dealt by a crit.

I'd write more but a lightning storm's starting to rage over here - gotta shutdown my computer

nightspaladin said:

I have suggested on a couple of boards this quick fix.

For every +3 static bonus, add +1
For every d6, add +1
For every d8, add +2
For every d10, add +3
For every d12, add +4

Click to expand...

Is this for epic tier only, or all tiers?

This is for any tier. Greg suggest that only paragon or better needs upgrading, but the increase i suggested will raise average damage 30-50% for any tier.

AbdulAlhazred said:

Yeah, I never minded the accuracy of brutes either. It IS rather futile generally to use below level brutes, but really the whole concept of a brute is a monster that can unleash scary damage but isn't necessarily the most effective combatant. Its the big dumb strong monster that lumbers into battle and you cringe a bit when it makes an attack, then sigh in relief when it misses or wince when it slaps you hard.

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Except for the fact that your average epic PC often has resistances to the damage it deals and that a brutes damage isn't significantly more impressive to begin with. In fact brutes are often so inaccurate they are incapable of inflicting a critical hit on a PC due to their high defenses (say a defender). This means that a brute does a paltry damage output, being utterly unable to hit and when it does the blow is completely insignificant.

I have stopped using brutes entirely in upper paragon and epic. They are a waste of time and space.

nightspaladin said:

This is for any tier. Greg suggest that only paragon or better needs upgrading, but the increase i suggested will raise average damage 30-50% for any tier.

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This isn't a good idea in heroic, because monsters right now have no problems at heroic being challenging or inflicting enough damage. I am not even convinced this should be done at early paragon. Where monsters in 4E classically begin to struggle is when paragon path features and other game elements really start getting on top of them around level 14. This is where the DM truly has to start stacking the deck against the PCs to bring the gap between the PCs and creatures to a reasonable level. Coincidentally it is level 14 or thereabouts that in my opinion solos become incapable of challenging a party as an actual solo monster anymore.

The damage increase does help a lot. It's important to remember though if you've seen the MM3 is that it's not just about damage. Monster powers have become much better designed. Your average MM3 monster can often do something even when its disabled or stunned. They have better overall powers, Astral Krakens can punish an optimized character that specializes in multiple attack encounter powers extremely badly (Hurricane of Blades for example - they have a power to make the PC use it on an ally as an example). Damage is a critical part of the improvements but it's not the only way they have been improved.

Aegeri said:

Except for the fact that your average epic PC often has resistances to the damage it deals and that a brutes damage isn't significantly more impressive to begin with. In fact brutes are often so inaccurate they are incapable of inflicting a critical hit on a PC due to their high defenses (say a defender). This means that a brute does a paltry damage output, being utterly unable to hit and when it does the blow is completely insignificant.

I have stopped using brutes entirely in upper paragon and epic. They are a waste of time and space.

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I'm just referring to the accuracy difference. +2 is not going to make that much difference. If the monster can't hit on a 20 then there's more going on than a slight accuracy problem. I guess I'm a bit puzzled though, with a standard +35 vs AC for a level 30 monster the heaviest theoretical AC a PC can have (48 AFAIK) still requires a 13 to-hit, 15 for a brute. That's not great, but playing by standard rules you won't EVER see equal level monsters missing on a 19 unless they're heavily debuffed etc. That of course is entirely possible but even at that level its unlikely EVERY target will be buffed to the gills every round. Basically if monsters at those levels aren't hitting enough, it isn't a problem with brutes per-se, its all of them.

So like I say, bringing brutes to-hit up doesn't bother me, but its sort of meh. Damage is a whole other story. Looking at the chart posted earlier and other calculations I've done for custom monsters I'd agree with the conclusion that a level 30 monster should be doing a minimum of double the low level 30 DMG damage expression. I also agree that level 1 damage expressions are about right as they are.

I wasn't suggesting that it is a good idea for us to increase heroic monsters damage output, just that the math of my quick fix will work on any tier you apply it too. I think by 11th-12th level, you are beginning to definitely see the problems appearing. We are currently 13th level in our campaign, and between the Dwarven battlerager and the Shifter Warden, our DM has a hard time every getting them both bloodied. Albeit they are optimized characters, it still makes the damage output of the mobs we are fighting questionable.

I noticed thatthe heroic tier controllers still are doing low damage.

I always up the dosage on damage at all tiers. I want combat to be fast and deadly. It works for our group. I have found the guidelines in the DMG are fine for making most monsters effective. I have instituted a 'Unique Damage Expression' that is double the 'Limited Damage Expression'.