D&D 5E The new exploration rules, discussion

I figured that we should have a separate thread for the brand new rules module.

My first reaction is that I like it, it's definitely the right direction, I have a few reservations about speed and maybe some nitpicks about the roles but they aren't that big.

My biggest compliant is that I feel that they should have had different sub sections for dungeon and wilderness exploration/travel.

What do you guys think?

Edit: I'm adding a list of what I think should be changed\clarified\added, tell me if you think I missed something!

• Different subsections for dungeon and wilderness exploration.
• Extended stealth\surprise section.
• More mechanical impact by other game mechanics, for example more feats' class features and spells that interact with the exploration mechanics.
• The party speed should be dictated by their encumbrance.
• Rules for encumbrance and food and water.

Warder

At first sight, they look like rules I would definitely use in a game I run.

I can't yet comment on how well they might work, but at least these kinds of rules will help a lot dealing with problems such as Rogues wanting to be looking for traps all the time. I have never been able to handle this problem well in the past and this seems to be one of the purposes on these turn-based exploration rules.

So for me this is a great addition to the D&D game!

EDIT: also I appreciate A LOT that these rules are "dial-able" i.e. the DM is in charge of deciding how long a "turn" will last or how large an exploration area is, depending on what she knows there is in this adventure.

I find this interesting stuff. It is really good to see some focus on this side of the game. I am still working out how this any better from using the skill challenge rules of 4th edition.

It seems strange that the incidence of wandering monsters depends upon what turn length you are using. But I may be reading this wrong.

@Raith5 You are.

The chance for a random monster is dictated by the monster population density and you roll the chance after each turn.

Warder

Raith5 said:

It seems strange that the incidence of wandering monsters depends upon what turn length you are using. But I may be reading this wrong.

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I definitely think the final books should clarify that those numbers should be mere examples, and it's up to the DM to pick values that create the wanted results.

I'll cross-post what I posted in the other thread:

It's exactly like the rest of the packet: stunningly, jaw-droppingly overcomplicated, and massively disappointing as a result. It's like old-school D&D exploration rules as imagined by someone who never played old-school D&D (or, more likely, as interpreted by someone who worked on 3e and 4e and thought "This is boring. You know what it needs? More complex rules!").

Let's take a look:

First, you decide how fast you're moving: rushed, fast, moderate, cautious. Fine.

Then everyone chooses which task they're doing on this turn: keeping watch, navigating, mapping, searching, sneaking. Oh, actually, wait. First, they have to roll dice to see how many tasks they can do. If they succeed, they can do two tasks, and get to roll again to see if they can do three tasks. (Die rolls: 1-2 per player)

Then, based on everyone's task(s), the round plays out. Nearly every task requires a die roll, and some of them are contested against creatures who they don't know are there. Okay, first of all, how am I supposed to roll if they don't know a monster's there? Secondly, if there's 20 orcs in the next room, am I supposed to roll 20 listen checks at once? Did the author even consider how people were supposed to be able to use these rules? (by the way, now we're at 2-5 die rolls per player per turn).

Then the DM checks for wandering monsters. Yes, you're supposed to check for wandering monsters after the part where the PCs make a million spot checks. How does that even what is that even.

Also note: you check for wandering monsters every turn, no matter what kind of turn you're using. If you're using 1-hour turns, you check every hour, but if you're using 1-day turns, you only check once per day. I can't even explain why that's stupid. It's obvious why that's stupid, right?

So anyway, if you roll an encounter, you figure out who notices who, and who has surprise. I'm not even going to try to figure out what the rules are trying to say--just see for yourselves.

Then it explains getting lost, and even though it assumes you're using a hex map, it gives directions in increments of 45 degrees. Perfect.

(Not to mention it uses the objectively inferior 5-mile hex and the debatably inferior half-mile subhex.)

GX.Sigma said:

I'll cross-post what I posted in the other thread:

It's exactly like the rest of the packet: stunningly, jaw-droppingly overcomplicated, and massively disappointing as a result. It's like old-school D&D exploration rules as imagined by someone who never played old-school D&D (or, more likely, as interpreted by someone who worked on 3e and 4e and thought "This is boring. You know what it needs? More complex rules!").

Click to expand...

Considering that it's probably going to fall under the heading of a rules module I have no problem with it being complex, but from reading through it twice it seems fairly straight forward to me.

GX.Sigma said:

Let's take a look:

First, you decide how fast you're moving: rushed, fast, moderate, cautious. Fine.

Then everyone chooses which task they're doing on this turn: keeping watch, navigating, mapping, searching, sneaking. Oh, actually, wait. First, they have to roll dice to see how many tasks they can do. If they succeed, they can do two tasks, and get to roll again to see if they can do three tasks. (Die rolls: 1-2 per player)

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No they don't. You only have to roll the dice if you want to do two tasks or more, the only reason I can think off for the entire group to roll 1-2 rolls per character is if they try to all sneak while doing other stuff.

GX.Sigma said:

Then, based on everyone's task(s), the round plays out. Nearly every task requires a die roll, and some of them are contested against creatures who they don't know are there. Okay, first of all, how am I supposed to roll if they don't know a monster's there?

Click to expand...

You pick up your dice and you roll, it's the DM job to tell you what happen.

GX.Sigma said:

Secondly, if there's 20 orcs in the next room, am I supposed to roll 20 listen checks at once? Did the author even consider how people were supposed to be able to use these rules? (by the way, now we're at 2-5 die rolls per player per turn).

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No, you roll one, although it's a valid question and it should be addressed.

GX.Sigma said:

Then the DM checks for wandering monsters. Yes, you're supposed to check for wandering monsters after the part where the PCs make a million spot checks. How does that even what is that even.

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I don't see what's the problem, the guys who keeps watch roll their wisdom checks, that is their spot DC for the entire turn the DM then use their roll for the secret contest rolls he is making (if any).

GX.Sigma said:

Also note: you check for wandering monsters every turn, no matter what kind of turn you're using. If you're using 1-hour turns, you check every hour, but if you're using 1-day turns, you only check once per day. I can't even explain why that's stupid. It's obvious why that's stupid, right?

Click to expand...

Not really...
Although, while using the 1-day turns I think it will be better to roll at the middle of the turn, coming to think about it I think it will be better for all the turns to check for randoms at the middle of the turn. But maybe instead of using 1-day turns we should use 1/3-day turns... it's worth thinking about.
I think that it should be stressed more in the rules that each DM should feel free to use what ever length of turns that suit his particular situation.

GX.Sigma said:

So anyway, if you roll an encounter, you figure out who notices who, and who has surprise. I'm not even going to try to figure out what the rules are trying to say--just see for yourselves.

Click to expand...

Seriously??? it's 16 lines and a table!

GX.Sigma said:

Then it explains getting lost, and even though it assumes you're using a hex map, it gives directions in increments of 45 degrees. Perfect.

Click to expand...

45 degrees is exactly one hex facing to either way. 90 degrees is two.

GX.Sigma said:

(Not to mention it uses the objectively inferior 5-mile hex and the debatably inferior half-mile subhex.)

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Agree on the 5-mile hex, but if you use the 6-mile hex than each of those breaks to 12 half-mile hex.

Warder

Blackwarder said:

No they don't. You only have to roll the dice if you want to do two tasks or more, the only reason I can think off for the entire group to roll 1-2 rolls per character is if they try to all sneak while doing other stuff.

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The point is, there's no reason not to roll, so they're all going to roll every time.

Blackwarder said:

You pick up your dice and you roll, it's the DM job to tell you what happen.

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This is supposed to a DM-side rule, and it doesn't give the DM rules for figuring out what happens. These are supposed to be exploration rules, but they don't actually clarify how exploration works in the d20 system. (Based on these rules, I suspect the answer is "it doesn't.")

Blackwarder said:

Not really...

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Then let me try to explain:
Scenario 1: You walk in a straight line through the woods all day.
Scenario 2: You walk in a straight line through the woods all day.

In scenario 1, you encounter a monster every hour. In scenario 2, you encounter only one monster all day.

Blackwarder said:

Seriously??? it's 16 lines and a table!

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Can you explain them to me? I'm still having trouble.
The Stealth paragraph says that "one group...can avoid detection completely...if all its members are sneaking" (without having to roll--except they already rolled during the movement phase). "Otherwise, contests occur as necessary to determine if anyone sneaking on either side is detected." There are no guidelines for how to conduct these contests (Does each creature individually roll a stealth check and a perception check? If so, how do I hide the fact that I'm making 20 die rolls when the characters only see 3 orcs? For that matter, why do you expect me to make 20 die rolls? Ain't nobody got time for that!).

The next paragraph begins with "if one group is hidden from the other, [x]. Otherwise..." This implies that, after you do "contests as necessary," you have each creature check against some DC to... do what? (It doesn't actually say what happens if you fail the saving throw. From the context, it seems they mean that whoever fails the save is surprised.) Actually, upon reading this again, this seems like a pretty reasonable rule. You can check right before each creature acts. It's nice to have a way to adjudicate the situation where the PCs kick in a door and find a bunch of monsters minding their own business. This one gets a pass.

Blackwarder said:

45 degrees is exactly one hex facing to either way. 90 degrees is two.

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You must be thinking of squares. One hex is 60 degrees, two hexes is 120 degrees.

Blackwarder said:

Agree on the 5-mile hex, but if you use the 6-mile hex than each of those breaks to 12 half-mile hex.

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Which is an inferior conversion rate. If you scale up, you get 72-mile superhexes, which are not granular enough for air or sea travel. Another step and you get 864-mile supersuperhexes, which are not useful for much of anything.

Blackwarder said:

45 degrees is exactly one hex facing to either way. 90 degrees is two.

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ermm....no, it doesn't...okay, well it doesn't in reverse...so to speak. With a hex map, you'd want 60 degree increments. You have 6 hexes around the one you occupy, 45 degree increments makes for 8 directions....

If you start your "0" direction straight into the next hex, your "2" direction will point directly in between two hexes.


...just saying.

GX.Sigma said:

Then let me try to explain:
Scenario 1: You walk in a straight line through the woods all day.
Scenario 2: You walk in a straight line through the woods all day.

In scenario 1, you encounter a monster every hour. In scenario 2, you encounter only one monster all day.

Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with this

The DM could also simply decide how many encounters, at what time, and with what monsters.

Random encounters rules or tables are there for those DMs who don't want to decide, but prefer to leave it to chance.

But since it's still up to the DM to decide whether to use these rules or not, and then whether to accept or ignore chance's results, plus to decide more general stuff such as what monsters exist in the world despite of what the tables say, choosing how often to roll for random encounters is just another DM's choice.

There's nothing wrong with having those 2 scenario work differently, they are just suggestions.