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Pathfinder 1E a real pathfinder fix thread... PF2e

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
That's actually a really good idea. Though I'd either make that auto-advancement either a Fighter class feature or (my preference, but probably 'sacred cow' turf) unify all the non-spellcasters into a single class that shares the track (with things like Rage and Sneak Attack fitting on the feat track).



Agreed - but see below...



I don't like this, because I'd be inclined to go another way with this.

At present, a full spellcaster gains in power "three times over" each (well, most) times he levels up: he gains access to new spell levels, he gains more spells at each level, and all his existing spells gain in power (due to "1d6 per level", and the like).

My inclination, when rebalancing, would be to remove the third of these three from spellcasters, while adding the first two to non-spellcasters. Whereas what you've suggested above is the opposite - adding the third to the non-spellcasters.

And, in fact...



I really like this.


Well that's my idea

The Warrior feats are buffed and scale on their own.
The Magic feats contain all the duration and damage scaling.

This way warriors get versatility from feats as the feats scale with single purchases.

Whereas casters who have versatility from spell levels need feat to get power and duration for all but their highest spells.

So you do both.
Well all three since I would adjust skill feats too.
 

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I would chop off level 7,8, and 9 spells from all casters, and give primary casters a different progression

Just spit balling but


0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1 3 1
2 3 2
3 4 2 1
4 4 3 2
5 4 3 2 1
6 5 3 3 2
7 5 4 3 2
8 5 4 3 3
9 5 4 4 3
10 5 4 4 3

11 6 5 5 4 1
12 6 6 5 4 2
13 6 6 5 4 2 1
14 6 6 6 4 3 1
15 6 6 6 5 3 2
16 6 6 6 5 3 2 1
17 6 6 6 5 4 2 1
18 6 6 6 5 4 3 2
19 6 6 6 5 4 3 2
20 6 6 6 6 4 3 2

with 0th level spells being at will like in pathfinder now... maybe some 7th or 8th level spells being remade as 6th
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I wouldn't go so far as some of you are going, of course PF had troubles, but a lot of the propossed changes are extremely drastic.

Overal.- would reduce the effect of size modifiers for combat maneuvers, as it stands the maneuver system overtly benefits monsters. It has to be tonned down.

Feats.- reinstate feat chains back to 3.5 levels, (improved maneuver familiy I'm looking at you) reinstate the bonuses to their original values and make them scale by bab.
Weapon specialization scales by bab

Feats like spell focus, spell mastery and the like require you to be specialized in that school.

Skills.- Remove the perception skill, every instance of it becomes a raw wisdom check. Trapfinding now adds full rogue level to wisdom checks to find traps. If you want to be better at perception, invest on feats, traits and a better wisdom.
Outright state that different Perform skills can substitute for other skills when trained as something everybody can do.

Spells.- Modiffy all buff spells to only work on people other than the caster by default, specialists can use spells of their school on themselves. Overall reduce the power of spells across the board to fit with the skill system, but let them have the power to break it in the hands of an specialist. (for example Arcane lock closes a door and increases the open DC by 1 per spell level if it has a lock, only an arcane lock casted by an abjurer or a sorcerer can produce the full effects of an arcane lock. Equally Knock allows an untrained disable device with a +1 to +9 bonus, but a diviner outright opens the lock) Scrolls by default always use the weaker version of the spell.
Introduce Legendary scrolls which can have the full version of the spell, but cost one hundred times more to make and take twenty times as much, they need Scribe Legendary Scroll (a new feat with scribe scroll and 10 spellcraft ranks as prerrequisites )

Magic items.- As told before, wands and scrolls can only have the weakest possible version of a spell, wands cost the same to be made, but are created with only twenty charges.

Change the standard magic weapons system. Swords can no longer have a clean enhancement bonus, (but masterwork bonus applies to damage), only properties, the system to calculate the cost of properties remains the same. Introduce the "enhanced" property which adds a +1 bonus to damage and attack but costs +3.

Armor and shields work on asimilar way, the masterwork quality improves the AC bonus by +1, again they cannot have enhancement bonuses, only properties.

Bracers of armor, rings of defense and amulets of defense cost twice as much and are capped at +3, they don't stack between themselves but stack with regular armor and shields.

Duplicate the costs of the cloak of resistence, reduce the cost of all items in that slot by 20%.

Change the cost of mental plus items, move it form quadratic to cubic.

Classes:
Across the board.- everybody but wizards, clerics and druids gain +2 extra skill points per level

Bard.- reinstate the original performance system, changing rounds per day to uses per day, increase uses by 50%. Allow them to treat all perform skills as if they were trained. Masterwork bonus and bonuses to perform skills also apply to bardic performance DCs.

Cleric.- organize all spells into domains, if you deity doesn't have that domain you can only cast spells form third level or lower from that one. Deities also have forbidden domains.

Druid.- Druids must pick shapeshift forms as they grow in level, no more picking whatever fits from the bestiary.

Sorcerer.- Reduce their maximum spells known by 1. They treat all of their spells as if they were specialists.

Wizard.- reinstate the forbidden school limits, no more casting spells from your banned schools. Reduce skill points to 0+int. Universalists don't have to ban schools, but they lose access to the strong versions of all spells and key feats which require specialization. No more UMD.
 

Starfox

Hero
This thread is going down the drain, like other similar "revise Pathfinder" threads, because what is discussed is not a revision, it a new game. If it is a new game you want, by all means write it, but don't make the 4E mistake and call it pathfinder. If 4E had had a new name it might have been better received. Be proud of your creation and give in a new name!

I can see the temptation, Pathfinder in the king of the mountain at present, so why not use the game most people are familiar with, and revise it. It is tempting, access that big audience. But revision only goes so far. Sometimes it is better to admit that and make a new game.
 

EnglishLanguage

First Post
Powerful at what? That question needs answering since power in one aspect of a fantasy setting doesn't necessarily lead to power in another.
For example, one reason I see all the time elsewhere to justify why Wizards should be better than Fighters is "Well of course they are, Wizards bend time and space and Fighters just swing a sharp piece of metal", which is disingenuous.

If you're discussing reality-bending levels of magic on the Wizard, a Fighter of that level isn't "just some guy with a sharp piece of metal". That's like comparing Hercules, Cuchulain, or Asura(of Asura's Wrath for a more modern reference) to an amateur stage magician and using that as evidence that noncasters should be inherently superior to casters. In both, two different power levels are being discussed.

At the level where the Fighter is "guy with sharp piece of metal", the Wizard is "amateur stage magician"

At the level where the Wizard is bending reality, granting wishes, and raising armies of the dead, the Fighter is the guy who kills planet-sized giants by punching them, holding up the entire planet on his back, and performing feats of physical prowess that people could only dream of writing myths and legends about.

THAT is what I'm talking about when I ask for equalizing power levels.


I don't necessarily agree that classes should not make each other redundant with the right prep and build.
I don't mean to say no class should never intrude on another class' "niche". Sure the Rogue is "Sneaky Thief/Assassin", but if a Fighter or Wizard applies resources to being sneaky, thieving, an assassin-y, they should be good at it(though I'd argue if the Rogue puts as much resources into it as any other class, he should still have an edge on them).

At the risk of beating a dead horse, the type of situation I don't want is 3.x where picking a Druid makes a Fighter completely obsolete considering they get a pet Fighter+ as a class feature, can turn into a Fighter+ themselves, can summon a pack of Fighter+'s, and then get a whole list of spells they can cast on top of all of that.
 

Blackwarder

Adventurer
I guess you haven't heard.

Whenever you burn a Pathfinder book another one appears along with a PDF copy on your computer.

:erm::D
Heil Hydra.jpg

Warder
 

Tovec

Explorer
I am working on my own OGL game (still in late alpha) and so I'm mostly here mining for ideas. I do think that most "revised" versions of the game are going to fall into two categories - not enough revision or too much revision. With that said..

I wouldn't go so far as some of you are going, of course PF had troubles, but a lot of the propossed changes are extremely drastic.

Overal.- would reduce the effect of size modifiers for combat maneuvers, as it stands the maneuver system overtly benefits monsters. It has to be tonned down.

Feats.- reinstate feat chains back to 3.5 levels, (improved maneuver familiy I'm looking at you) reinstate the bonuses to their original values and make them scale by bab.
Weapon specialization scales by bab

Feats like spell focus, spell mastery and the like require you to be specialized in that school.

Skills.- Remove the perception skill, every instance of it becomes a raw wisdom check. Trapfinding now adds full rogue level to wisdom checks to find traps. If you want to be better at perception, invest on feats, traits and a better wisdom.
Outright state that different Perform skills can substitute for other skills when trained as something everybody can do.

Spells.- Modiffy all buff spells to only work on people other than the caster by default, specialists can use spells of their school on themselves. Overall reduce the power of spells across the board to fit with the skill system, but let them have the power to break it in the hands of an specialist. (for example Arcane lock closes a door and increases the open DC by 1 per spell level if it has a lock, only an arcane lock casted by an abjurer or a sorcerer can produce the full effects of an arcane lock. Equally Knock allows an untrained disable device with a +1 to +9 bonus, but a diviner outright opens the lock) Scrolls by default always use the weaker version of the spell.
Introduce Legendary scrolls which can have the full version of the spell, but cost one hundred times more to make and take twenty times as much, they need Scribe Legendary Scroll (a new feat with scribe scroll and 10 spellcraft ranks as prerrequisites )

Magic items.- As told before, wands and scrolls can only have the weakest possible version of a spell, wands cost the same to be made, but are created with only twenty charges.

Change the standard magic weapons system. Swords can no longer have a clean enhancement bonus, (but masterwork bonus applies to damage), only properties, the system to calculate the cost of properties remains the same. Introduce the "enhanced" property which adds a +1 bonus to damage and attack but costs +3.

Armor and shields work on asimilar way, the masterwork quality improves the AC bonus by +1, again they cannot have enhancement bonuses, only properties.

Bracers of armor, rings of defense and amulets of defense cost twice as much and are capped at +3, they don't stack between themselves but stack with regular armor and shields.

Duplicate the costs of the cloak of resistence, reduce the cost of all items in that slot by 20%.

Change the cost of mental plus items, move it form quadratic to cubic.

Classes:
Across the board.- everybody but wizards, clerics and druids gain +2 extra skill points per level

Bard.- reinstate the original performance system, changing rounds per day to uses per day, increase uses by 50%. Allow them to treat all perform skills as if they were trained. Masterwork bonus and bonuses to perform skills also apply to bardic performance DCs.

Cleric.- organize all spells into domains, if you deity doesn't have that domain you can only cast spells form third level or lower from that one. Deities also have forbidden domains.

Druid.- Druids must pick shapeshift forms as they grow in level, no more picking whatever fits from the bestiary.

Sorcerer.- Reduce their maximum spells known by 1. They treat all of their spells as if they were specialists.

Wizard.- reinstate the forbidden school limits, no more casting spells from your banned schools. Reduce skill points to 0+int. Universalists don't have to ban schools, but they lose access to the strong versions of all spells and key feats which require specialization. No more UMD.

I absolutely love these revisions for a Pathfinder 2.0. It is not what I would have come up with but they are REALLY good ideas. More like this and I would be on board with PF2e in a heartbeat. It addresses many issues (though I think wizards going down to int+0 is perhaps too far) and yet keeps it feeling and working very similar to the existing game - or could at least use it for inspiration and direct rips more often than not. Good job KaiiLurker, had to quote to just state how good. More thoughts like this in this thread and a fan-made PF 2.0 has a chance.
 


Blackbrrd

First Post
This thread is going down the drain, like other similar "revise Pathfinder" threads, because what is discussed is not a revision, it a new game. If it is a new game you want, by all means write it, but don't make the 4E mistake and call it pathfinder. If 4E had had a new name it might have been better received. Be proud of your creation and give in a new name!

I can see the temptation, Pathfinder in the king of the mountain at present, so why not use the game most people are familiar with, and revise it. It is tempting, access that big audience. But revision only goes so far. Sometimes it is better to admit that and make a new game.
Some of the suggestions here are, as you say, too radical to keep the game still resemble 3e. 4e departed too far from earlier editions to really feel like D&D. (I currently play 4e, but I do prefer the way they are going with 5e).

Anyway, not all the suggestions here are so radical that they create a new game. Some of the suggestions, like the one @Minigiant , @delericho and myself has made to alter feat progression would probably still feel like 3e, but with power balance closer resembling 1e.

I really liked the suggestion about feats that scale spells, martial combat and skills. To me, these are the current trinity of progressions in the game. If a new system could make a mix where you would always trade away both of the others to specialize, but also let hybrids work relatively well, I think it would work out pretty well.

I do think 5e will closer resemble Pathfinder 2e than a successor to 4e. Which is something I really like, even though I never played Pathfinder.
 

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