D&D 5E spells in 5.0

So if Pathfinder is "3.75," 5.0 is something like "3.99." Not that it is similar to 4.0 - it's not - but it's like the next logical step in 3.5's evolution. If Pathfinder is 3.5's sibling, 5.0 is 3.5's first cousin. 4.0 and 5.0... probably live in the same apartment building. It's pretty clear who they were trying to please with this edition.

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the spell list. For anyone who hasn't seen the PHB yet, if you're worried that your favorite spell wasn't included: don't be. It's like they took the entire 3.5 catalog, added a few 4.0 spells people liked, threw in a couple new ones, and that's the list. Spells alone are PART THREE of a three part book, for crying out loud. The only reduction I noticed was the repetitive spells - cure wounds, inflict wounds, summon monster blah, etc. All the crazy spells are still in there - magic jar, wish, clone - including all the insane ones and the ones that don't seem to make sense. Except they DID do a good job of a) making them make more sense (magic jar never made sense before and now at least you know how it works, even if it's still a terrible spell) and b) they reigned in the power level something amazing. Teleport (in Basic) is a perfect example. Yes, it's still amazing: but it's not constantly campaign-breaking anymore. Similarly wish is much more reasonable. Nearly everything that could get you something amazing has a pretty serious cost or side effect now. Which I think goes a long way toward making characters distinct but not laughably unbalanced anymore.

TL;DR: Reading the 5.0 PHB spell list was like reading the 3.5 PHB.

Whenever I describe 5E to people, I tell them it's a 3E Chassis with 4E Tweaks and a 2E Feel to it. And I'm lovin' it!!

Syntallah said:

Whenever I describe 5E to people, I tell them it's a 3E Chassis with 4E Tweaks and a 2E Feel to it. And I'm lovin' it!!

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That's a good description.

evilbob said:

So if Pathfinder is "3.75," 5.0 is something like "3.99." Not that it is similar to 4.0 - it's not - but it's like the next logical step in 3.5's evolution. If Pathfinder is 3.5's sibling, 5.0 is 3.5's first cousin. 4.0 and 5.0... probably live in the same apartment building. It's pretty clear who they were trying to please with this edition.

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the spell list. For anyone who hasn't seen the PHB yet, if you're worried that your favorite spell wasn't included: don't be. It's like they took the entire 3.5 catalog, added a few 4.0 spells people liked, threw in a couple new ones, and that's the list. Spells alone are PART THREE of a three part book, for crying out loud. The only reduction I noticed was the repetitive spells - cure wounds, inflict wounds, summon monster blah, etc. All the crazy spells are still in there - magic jar, wish, clone - including all the insane ones and the ones that don't seem to make sense. Except they DID do a good job of a) making them make more sense (magic jar never made sense before and now at least you know how it works, even if it's still a terrible spell) and b) they reigned in the power level something amazing. Teleport (in Basic) is a perfect example. Yes, it's still amazing: but it's not constantly campaign-breaking anymore. Similarly wish is much more reasonable. Nearly everything that could get you something amazing has a pretty serious cost or side effect now. Which I think goes a long way toward making characters distinct but not laughably unbalanced anymore.

TL;DR: Reading the 5.0 PHB spell list was like reading the 3.5 PHB.

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It's far more like 2.99 than 3.99, imo, frankly. Before 3E came out, WotC had an article listing "10 ways you can play 3E now!", which were tweaks (big ones) to 2E. Using all of those gave a game closer to 5E than how 3E actually turned out.

evilbob said:

So if Pathfinder is "3.75," 5.0 is something like "3.99." Not that it is similar to 4.0 - it's not - but it's like the next logical step in 3.5's evolution. If Pathfinder is 3.5's sibling, 5.0 is 3.5's first cousin. 4.0 and 5.0... probably live in the same apartment building. It's pretty clear who they were trying to please with this edition.

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Honestly, I think the "4E-ness" of 5E is too often overlooked. The mechanics and design philosophy of 5E look a lot more like 4E than 3E: multiple builds per class, each with a significantly different playstyle; flat attack- and save-math across all characters; no restrictions on class/alignment combos; no penalties to race, so any race/class combo is viable; monster attacks are written more like powers than attack stats; A/E/D/U powers, albeit obscured underneath different formatting. The list goes on.

(One of the only "rollbacks" 5E has is the lack of universally static defenses--i.e.: a target of a spell in 5E has to roll a saving throw versus a DC, rather than the attacker rolling to hit a defense score.)

Overall, 5E is a lot more like 4E than 3E, except for its presentation; 5E resurrected a lot of sacred flavour-hamburgers that 4E slaughtered, and 5E is definitely written and formatted in a way more reminiscent of 1E/2E/3E than of 4E's weird blocks-of-powers layout.

EDIT: I'm no fan of the decimal notation some folks have stuck with. There is no 4.0, only 4th Edition. Currently there's also no 5.0, only 5th Edition. 3.5E is dead; let's bury this dumb software-inspired nomenclature with it!

I haven't read all the spells yet. There's a part of me that is a little disappoint how "not game-breaking" some of the higher level spells are. The 2e spells really captivated my adolescent mind, and by making them reasonable they're making them somewhat less... magical. But I can live with that because it's a game, and so game-breaking is bad.

I hope people don't mind if I repeat something I wrote elsewhere a few days ago. Here's a somewhat more refined version: I love Witchbolt, and when I run it I'm going to modify it as follows. It can be an action or a reaction. When an enemy casts witchbolt at you, you can as a reaction cast witchbolt to create a duel of magic rays, each seeking to overpower the other. While the duel is ongoing, neither caster takes damage. Both casters roll a contest, each using their spellcasting score plus proficiency bonus, plus 1 for each level higher than one at which the spell was cast. Record the difference in results, with the stronger result gaining the upperhand as follows: the situation continues round by round with a contest on each caster's turn until the cumulative difference is 10 or greater. (So a couple close contest wins might have one caster nearly destroying the other's bolt, but then a major win by the other can turn the tables.) When the difference reaches 10, the other bolt is destroyed and Witchbolt damage is dealt as normal.

I see entire magic-heavy societies where wizards play out this duel over social slights, or to gain prestige and rank in wizard academies. I see arenas where capture wizards are magically forced to duel as gladiators do. I see Big Trouble in Little China, Lo Pan and Egg Chen...







Oh yeah, and dumbledore and voldemort and stuff, too.


Edit: Tweaked.

I think it's got BECMI feel, 1e flavor, 3e chassis and 2e/4e-level customization.

4e influences 5e in a TON of ways, and 4e detractors seem to overlook them. Just to start- Hit Dice are obviously an evolution of healing surges; the short and long rest; subclasses as major elements of a pc's build; monsters; the ability to recharge certain abilities after a short rest or under certain conditions; the Sentinel feat; quite a few 4e spells, such as Thunderwave, and abilities reflavored as spells, such as Hunter's Mark; etc. And that's all off the top of my head, without even having the PH yet and without the MM or DMG even out.

the Jester said:

I think it's got BECMI feel, 1e flavor, 3e chassis and 2e/4e-level customization.

4e influences 5e in a TON of ways, and 4e detractors seem to overlook them. Just to start- Hit Dice are obviously an evolution of healing surges; the short and long rest; subclasses as major elements of a pc's build; monsters; the ability to recharge certain abilities after a short rest or under certain conditions; the Sentinel feat; quite a few 4e spells, such as Thunderwave, and abilities reflavored as spells, such as Hunter's Mark; etc. And that's all off the top of my head, without even having the PH yet and without the MM or DMG even out.

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I think both some detractors, and some proponents overlook them. Which is too bad, because saying 5e is basically just Xe with tweaks (with 1<X<5) is ignoring a lot of what they've done.

I think it is a realy well designed game. Whether that means it will beone I want to play much remains to be seen.

As a slight aside is there anything in 5e that was in 3e but was not in either 2e or 4e?

If not the game would be 2e with 4e tweaks (4e of course carried an awful lot of 3e changes with it)

edit: gah! multiclassing of course

the Jester said:

Just to start- Hit Dice are obviously an evolution of healing surges;

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Argh not this ridiculous chesnut again! Actually, they function in a way that is diametrically opposed to Healing Surges. HSes were the limited and controlled core of all healing in 4E. HD are free minor bonus healing.

the Jester said:

the short and long rest;

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5 mins = 1hr is a pretty bonkers change. It's kind of like if Wizards needed a week to regain their spells or something.

So yeah, the concept of rests beyond the daily, sure (though I think late 3.5E started that), but the implementation is strongly at-odds with 4E's "keep the game flowing" deal, instead becoming "Get the picnic basket and nap mats out!".

the Jester said:

subclasses as major elements of a pc's build;

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Not a 3E thing, I agree, but hardly limited to 4E - 2E's kits were VERY similar to 5E's sub-classes in many cases. So 2E and 4E influence.

the Jester said:

monsters;

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Yep, but again we have stuff starkly at odds with 4E implementations, even ignoring scaling bonuses etc. etc.

the Jester said:

the ability to recharge certain abilities after a short rest or under certain conditions;

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Was in 3.5E, plus sorta repeating yourself.

the Jester said:

the Sentinel feat;

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What does it actually do?

the Jester said:

quite a few 4e spells, such as Thunderwave, and abilities reflavored as spells, such as Hunter's Mark; etc.

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Indeed. Far more 4E abilities left in the dust, though, many with no apparent design space to return.