D&D 5E Volo's absurdly tiny maps

LordEntrails · Nov 20, 2016

LexStarwalker said:
The assumption in fifth edition is that you're playing without miniatures, not with them (see the PHB and DMG), so I don't think that explanation holds water.

Even running published content, the DM still has to think critically. Mistakes like these occur in published products all the time. Kudos to the OP for spotting this and pointing it out to those of us that aren't paying such close attention.

Just because the DMG says mini's are not needed etc, doesn't mean that the mindset of the designers doesn't account for the need for people to want to use battlemaps. Years of habit and the related assumptions are not broken without a conscious effort and need.

As has been said, as long as you use the maps with some critical thinking, adjusting and using other techniques as well, the maps work just fine.

FormerlyHemlock · Nov 20, 2016

dropbear8mybaby said:
And now all those hobgoblins know where you live and where to set up their forward establishment base

I believe that info is already visible on my profile anyway.

FormerlyHemlock · Nov 20, 2016

Jester David said:
Counting the squares it looks to be a couple hundred feet wide.
Throwing that into google maps and comparing that to a stretch of New York.
*snip*
Looks pretty big. Or rather non-small.

Meh. You snipped about 80% of that city block, which throws off the sense of scale a bit. It's 20% of that city block, or about fifteen car-lengths long. It's such a short distance that you probably wouldn't even notice it when walking. That park to the south of the area you showed could fit about five hundred hobgoblin camps inside of it, and more closely resembles the kind of terrain a hobgoblin camp would be found inside of.

I mean, you've proved that humans in an area of pricey real estate pack themselves into even smaller areas than do hobgoblins setting up fortifications. Is anyone surprised by that fact? If the hobgoblins were paying $3000/month for 900 square feet I bet their camps would get even smaller.

Those tiny 10' x 15' barracks would start looking downright spacious, even with six bunks to a barrack.

Edit: here's the ground level view of that same block. Does it still look non-small?

Jester David · Nov 20, 2016

Hemlock said:
Meh. You snipped about 80% of that city block, which throws off the sense of scale a bit. It's 20% of that city block, or about fifteen car-lengths long. It's such a short distance that you probably wouldn't even notice it when walking. That park to the south of the area you showed could fit about five hundred hobgoblin camps inside of it, and more closely resembles the kind of terrain a hobgoblin camp would be found inside of.

I mean, you've proved that humans in an area of pricey real estate pack themselves into even smaller areas than do hobgoblins setting up fortifications. Is anyone surprised by that fact? If the hobgoblins were paying $3000/month for 900 square feet I bet their camps would get even smaller. Those tiny 10' x 15' barracks would start looking downright spacious, even with six bunks to a barrack.

Edit: here's the ground level view of that same block. Does it still look non-small?View attachment 78436

I'm not sure that's the same street. Malcom X Boulevard and Central Park North?

Based on the scale and counting squares, the space just within the walls (not including the pits) is 45 squares. At 5 feet that's 225 feet.

Taking a few pic for myself, just horizontally it should be this:

(255 feet for the buildings)

Which seems a little small to us modern city folk used to the vast space of North America. But when you're building a fortification, size is the enemy. Having too much space means having walls you can't defend. Forts and keeps are small. And it's not like every soldier has their own apartment with three or four rooms. It's a military camp: each tent likely houses five or six individuals.

Compare this with the size of Guédelon Castle or the Ozark Medieval Fortress.

happyhermit · Nov 20, 2016

Hemlock said:
Meh. You snipped about 80% of that city block, which throws off the sense of scale a bit. It's 20% of that city block, or about fifteen car-lengths long. It's such a short distance that you probably wouldn't even notice it when walking. That park to the south of the area you showed could fit about five hundred hobgoblin camps inside of it, and more closely resembles the kind of terrain a hobgoblin camp would be found inside of.

I mean, you've proved that humans in an area of pricey real estate pack themselves into even smaller areas than do hobgoblins setting up fortifications. Is anyone surprised by that fact? If the hobgoblins were paying $3000/month for 900 square feet I bet their camps would get even smaller. Those tiny 10' x 15' barracks would start looking downright spacious, even with six bunks to a barrack.
...

Well, it doesn't specify the number of Goblinoids in the camp but it seems appropriately sized to easily accommodate up to the largest "army" that is commonly useful in D&D, the Roman Cohort or modern Battalion.

At a glance I count 32 hobgoblin barracks 10x15 as you say (but some are actually smaller I believe). A 10x15 camping tent is rated about 10 persons. Wall tents are probably a better comparison wherein a tent that size is rated for at least 5 people, when they are doing a significant amount of activity indoors. Bunks of course would nearly double that number.

At the very conservative 5/barracks that would still be over 150 Hobgoblins. Given the description and the map, there would be more Goblins and Bugbears combined than Hobs. So 300 goblinoids minimum, same as Cohort or Battalion.

200'X200' is about 1 acre, Roman Legions (10 Cohorts or more) are known to have built encampments on less than 10 acres.

So, I don't know how much this stuff was actually thought through as opposed to just making a cool map to fit on the table, but it works surprisingly well.

MonsterEnvy · Nov 20, 2016

Yeah I see nothing wrong with that goblinoid camp.

Helldritch · Nov 20, 2016

You should also rember that soldiers will sleep in shifts. Personal bedding is something of a modern mindset. In medieval times, soldiers on the field would take turns in shared beds. This can easily double the army that can fit in that camp. Some would be in the camp making guard shifts, others would be foraging and others would be drilling and whatever hobgoblins do to have a "good time".

FormerlyHemlock · Nov 20, 2016

Jester David said:
I'm not sure that's the same street. Malcom X Boulevard and Central Park North?

Same street. You can see both the Google Maps label and the sign on the church. It's a view from the west.

Sword of Spirit · Nov 21, 2016

Okay people, compare everything on the hobgoblin map to the cars on the New York map. "Car's length" is the new unit of measurement, since we can all clearly relate to that.

D&D 5E Volo's absurdly tiny maps

LordEntrails

Hero

FormerlyHemlock

Hero

FormerlyHemlock

Hero

Jester David

Hero

happyhermit

Adventurer

MonsterEnvy

Legend

Helldritch

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FormerlyHemlock

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Sword of Spirit

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