Weapon-specific fighting styles

BookBarbarian said:

I would prefer it at the feat level than at the fighting Style level. In fact I rather liked a lot of the Weapon Feats in Unearthed Arcana like Fell-handed.

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BookBarbarian said:

that +1 AC is as you said 5% damage reduction always on, now and forever, against whatever you're fighting.

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Gavin O. said:

And if the dragon breathes fire at you, or uses its frightful presence on you, or the enemy wizard casts dominate person on you, then Defense style is saving you nothing, because it doesn't affect saving throws.

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Saelorn said:

Those are things that would require you to drastically change your character concept, though. The fighter with a maul is a very different character from the fighter with a sword and shield or the fighter with a longbow. The difference between a greatsword and maul, or longsword and battleaxe, is mostly cosmetic. That's the pain which the rules are designed to avoid - that you might suffer significant mechanical advantage for having made a cosmetic decision.

The game doesn't assume that the DM will be tailoring magic items to the players, though. If you roll randomly for loot, or play a if you play a published adventure, then you can only find the weapons that are there and your character concept is irrelevant to that.

As someone who was briefly dragged into a high-level game with a weapon-specific character build (hand crossbow), I can say with some confidence that a character built around one specific weapon type is highly likely to never find a magical version of that specific weapon. There's a good reason why so many fighters in 2E specialized in the longsword.

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BookBarbarian said:

Yup, less helpful in that situation, though if you're frightened or dominated you aren't using your damaging fighting style on that Dragon or wizard either.

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Gavin O. said:

But if you have a damaging fighting style, you'll be able to defeat that dragon/wizard in fewer rounds, leaving them fewer opportunities to use their abilities on you. Let's look at the most extreme case, which is archery style in combination with the feat sharpshooter. An Adult Red Dragon has an AC of 19, which means with a proficiency bonus of +6 and +5 dex cancelled out by the -5 to hit from Sharpshooter, you need a natural 13 to hit (odds of that are 40%), and with a longbow, you deal 1d8+15 damage (average of 19.5) on a hit, which means your overall damage per attack is 7.8. If instead you had the archery fighting style, you'd get +2 to hit, so only need a natural 11 to hit. Your odds of hitting jump to 50%, which means your average damage jumps up to 9.75, almost a 2 point increase. In the first case, you would need 33 attacks to kill the 256-HP dragon, which would take you 9 rounds at 4 attacks per round. In the second case, you would only need 27 attacks, which would only take you 7 rounds at 4 attacks per round. Your offensive fighting style has saved you two whole rounds of attacks.

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BookBarbarian said:

Ah, but the Archery fighting style affects to hit which which is kept more limited by bounded accuracy, it's much more of an outlier that the styles that just add damage.

And combining with a feat is bringing an entirely new discussion into it.

If were doing that we should compare like to like. Shieldmaster feat + Dueling vs. Shieldmaster feat + Defense or even Great Weapon Maser feat and Great Weapon Fighting vs Great Weapon Master feat and Defense.

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Gavin O. said:

Okay, let's do that then:

Shield Master + Dueling: using the shield bash to shove your target prone: Adult Red Dragons have a strength bonus of +8. With Expertise in Athletics (which you can get from 1 level in Rogue) you can get your check up to +18, which means the dragon would have to roll 10 points higher than you to resist being knocked prone. The odds of that happening are 55/400, or 13%. So 87% of the time, we'll have advantage on our 4 attacks. Note that this is against a creature who's best ability score is Strength, against a creature with +0 strength, you'd have to roll exactly 1 while they roll exactly 20 in order for them to resist your shove.

Using a Longsword with Dueling, our damage output is 1d8+7, or 11.5. Using a longsword without Dueling, our damage output it 1d8+5, or 9.5.

With +11 to hit, we need to roll a 7 or higher, and since we have advantage, our odds of rolling at least one 7+ in 2 d20s is 92% as per the hypergeometric distribution calculator View attachment 95115. So our average damage per attack is 10.58 with dueling and 8.74 without. With 4 attacks per round again, we'd need just over 6 rounds to kill the dragon with dueling and just over 7 rounds to kill it with defense. We've still saved over a round worth of attacks.

in the 13% chance that the dragon makes his check vs our shove, our odds of hitting fall to 14/20, or 70%. With Dueling, our damage per attack would drop to 8.05, and with Defense, it would drop to 6.65. That means we'd need 8 rounds of attacks with dueling and 10 rounds of attacks without.

going sword and board with Shield Master, dueling style saves you at least one round.

How about with Great Weapon?

Your chance to hit is now 40% (same math as for sharpshooter) in both cases.

A maul with Great Weapon Style deals on average 8.33+15 = 23.33 damage (the 3 repeats forever), where without great weapon, you're dealing 7+15 = 22 damage. Your damage per attack is 9.332 in the first case, and 8.8 in the second. Still using 4 attacks per round, it would take us 6.87 rounds to kill the dragon with Great Weapon Fighting, and 7.27 without. That's not as much as the other cases, but technically, we have saved one round of attacking.

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Gavin O. said:

In the PHB, there isn’t much choice of fighting style once you know what kind of weapon you’re wielding. If you’re using a one-handed weapon and a shield, you must pick dueling, as Great Weapon Fighting, Archery, and Two-weapon fighting don’t work as per the game rules. There’s always defense style, but +1 to AC is both not as effective and not as fun as dealing more damage, for the most part. The existing fighting styles are also almost all just pure numbers: +2 to hit, +2 to damage, +1 to AC. These new fighting styles will try to provide more interesting options to weapon-wielding characters, while also helping to distinguish the weapons from each other and giving more options to characters that acquire more fighting styles from multiclassing or the fighter subclass champion.


Axeman Style: When you make an attack with a handaxe, a battleaxe, or a greataxe, you can choose to put the full weight of your body into your swing. Doing so lets you deal an extra 1d8 slashing damage if you hit, but if you miss, your AC decreases by 2 until the end of your next turn (cumulative with multiple misses). You also gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls against prone targets.

Bludgeoner Style: When you hit a creature with a weapon attack using a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage, the target has disadvantage on the next ability check or Constitution saving throw it makes before the end of your next turn. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with bludgeoning weapons, except for the Maul.

Opportunist’s Style: You can take one extra reaction during each round of combat. In addition, if you take the ready action on your turn to ready an attack, you can make the number of attacks you could normally make with your attack action (as granted by Extra Attack or a similar feature) as part of that reaction, instead of just one attack.

Flexible Weapon Style: When you hit a creature within 5 feet of you with a weapon attack from a Flail or Whip, you can choose to deal half damage. If you do, the target must make a Dexterity saving throw(DC 8+ your proficiency bonus + your strength or dexterity modifier), and if it fails, it drops one item of your choice that it is holding. Also, your attacks with a flail or whip ignore the AC bonus offered by shields or specific weapons.

Blade Dancer Style: When you miss with a weapon attack using a dagger or scimitar, you deal slashing damage to the target equal to your Dexterity modifier

Dagger Style: When you score a critical hit with a weapon attack using a dagger, the attack deals extra damage equal to your dexterity modifier. In addition, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you use a bonus action to make a weapon attack using a dagger. If that attack didn’t allow you to add your ability modifier to the damage (such as with two-weapon fighting), then neither of the attacks do.

Fencer’s Style: When you take the attack action on your turn using a Dagger, a shortsword, a rapier, or a longsword, you can forgo one of your attacks to prepare for your foe’s strike. The next creature that attacks you until the start or your next turn provokes an opportunity attack from you, and if you hit with that attack, the target has disadvantage on its own attack.

Spearman Style: If you move at least 15 feet in a straight line towards your target before taking the attack action with a Spear, Pike, Lance, or War Pick, you can put the force of your momentum into your thrust. Instead of making an attack roll, the target must make a Dexterity Saving Throw, DC 8 + your Strength Modifier + your Proficiency bonus. If the target fails, your attack hits and is an automatic critical hit. If the target succeeds, your attack misses and you move 5 more feet in the same direction and must succeed on a DC 13 acrobatics check or fall prone. If you have multiple attacks as part of your attack action, you can’t make this special attack more than once in the same turn.

So what do you think? Would these be fun and/or balanced? Have you ever used or had your players use strictly outclassed weapons like the flail or war pick?

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FrogReaver said:

Talking about a Fighter using GWM without Precision attack is like talking about a Peanut Butter sandwich without the Jelly. Something very important is missing.

Basically any math that mentions one and not the other is totally suspect

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