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D&D General D&D doesn't need Evil
- Thread starter BookTenTiger
- Start date
MGibster
Legend
Given that there are plenty of other RPGs out there without G vs. E like we find in D&D so I have to agree with you here. However, I need good and evil in my D&D games and if it's removed from the game in its entirety I'll go play something else. For me, D&D is a game of high fantasy where good and evil are palpable forces. I don't play D&D for shades of grey where morally ambiguous anti-heroes wreak havoc across the land for the highest bidder. I play D&D because it's a game where good fights and triumphs over evil. Though most modules are written with the assumption that the PCs are good guys, I wonder if my love of good versus evil in D&D is in the minority now.
I'm a member of Necromancer Local #666 and we're drafting you a firmly worded letter regarding your libelous statement. We're just misunderstood.
Urriak Uruk
Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
All D&D needs is an antagonist, which doesn't always need to be evil.
There are 4 types of antagonists (thank you MasterClass);
There are 4 types of antagonists (thank you MasterClass);
- Villains: The traditional definition of antagonist is a villain—a “bad guy” in the story, often working for evil purposes to destroy a heroic protagonist. While there can be villainous protagonists, villains are antagonists when they’re not the main character of the story but instead are the main source of conflict for the main characters. There are different types of villains within the category: the mastermind, the anti-villain, the evil villain, the minion or henchman, and the supervillain, to name a few. Examples of classic villain protagonists include Darth Vader from Star Wars, the Joker from the Batman comics, and Captain Ahab from Moby Dick.
- Conflict-creators: An antagonist doesn’t have to be a “bad guy.” Sometimes, they’re just a character whose goals are in direct conflict with the protagonist’s, like Mr. Darcy in Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice, who is constantly at odds with the main character Elizabeth Bennet. Another example of this type of antagonist: Javert, who works to arrest Valjean in Victor Hugo’s Les Misérables.
- Inanimate forces: An antagonist doesn’t have to be human—the main antagonist can sometimes be a force, like nature. A good example of an antagonistic force is the sea in Robinson Crusoe.
- The protagonist themselves: The main source of conflict in a story can be from within the main character’s own self—their shortcomings or insecurities are keeping them from reaching their goal. A prime example of an internal antagonist is Holden Caulfield in J.D. Salinger’s The Catcher in the Rye. While Holden comes into conflict with many characters in the novel, the ever-present antagonizing conflict comes from his own obsessions and insecurities. If a story doesn’t have an external antagonizing force but rather seats the conflict within the protagonist, a strong backstory is useful for fueling that inner conflict.
Amrûnril
Adventurer
This essay seems relevant to the discussion of "D&D polytheism" vs. real world polytheism. Even aside from such comparisons, though, I'm not sure how the "D&D polytheism" framework (here's a list of objectively real deities: pick one) came to be so widely assumed as the default. There are so many different ways religion could work, and I think assuming any one of them as a default is a major mistake (and I think this one in particular limits narrative possibilities revolving around faith and doubt).
As for the Song of Ice and Fire references earlier in the thread, something I think these stories illustrate well is that actual human evil, shown by peoples' actions, can be far more evil than metaphysical evil defined by DM or author fiat. I'm a book reader, so I don't know what we'll ultimately learn about the Others*, but I can't even imagine them being more an embodiment of evil than Tywin Lannister, either Bolton, or any of a score of other human characters.
*if GRRM ever finishes
**then again, I'm not convinced show watchers know what we'll learn either
As for the Song of Ice and Fire references earlier in the thread, something I think these stories illustrate well is that actual human evil, shown by peoples' actions, can be far more evil than metaphysical evil defined by DM or author fiat. I'm a book reader, so I don't know what we'll ultimately learn about the Others*, but I can't even imagine them being more an embodiment of evil than Tywin Lannister, either Bolton, or any of a score of other human characters.
*if GRRM ever finishes
**then again, I'm not convinced show watchers know what we'll learn either
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
5 per 100000 is very rare. Not so rare as to be unheard of, but rare none the less. 1 in 1000 is what it takes to be rare. I actually think it's less than that, but that's what google says and I don't feel like doing more work to look it up.
Bedrockgames
Legend
I actually prefer morally gray worlds and games. And I think outside D&D, there are plenty that don't get into whether something is good or evil. But I also think one of the draws of D&D, and why it resonates, it is often about good versus evil, and that is something that resonates pretty immediately and deeply with people. You can certainly play D&D without evil. I have done so plenty of times. I would be wary of removing it from D&D, as I think it is one of the things that gives the game its character. I think with evil and with alignment, in D&D it often becomes more about how much you lean into that aspect of the game. And I find that can vary a lot from campaign to campaign.
Also this is a perfect thread to point out: there are all kinds of RPGs out there and if something like this in D&D doesn't appeal to you, or you are tired of it, check some of the other options out. There is pretty much a flavor of game for everything you can imagine at this point.
Also this is a perfect thread to point out: there are all kinds of RPGs out there and if something like this in D&D doesn't appeal to you, or you are tired of it, check some of the other options out. There is pretty much a flavor of game for everything you can imagine at this point.
Scribe
Legend
I'd continue this line, and ask what value God's provide conceptually to the entire nature of your setting, or D&D in general.
DemoMonkey
Hero
I think it would be great if our D and D worlds didn't have evils. Just think of how much longer food stores like flour, grain, rice, cereal, nuts, and beans would last. Ration prices would drop.
In nautical adventures you could bite into a ships biscuit and not have to make a con save.
And clothes would be so much cheaper too, without all the cotton crops being damaged.
Yep. I think getting rid of evils would be great.
In nautical adventures you could bite into a ships biscuit and not have to make a con save.
And clothes would be so much cheaper too, without all the cotton crops being damaged.
Yep. I think getting rid of evils would be great.
MGibster
Legend
But then how do we have character driven conflicts where the PCs must choose between the lesser of two weevils?
DemoMonkey
Hero
It has been drawn to my attention that I may have made a critical reading error.
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