D&D 5E Is 5E Special

@EzekielRaiden
Thanks for that post. I read it later.

No, i have not made 2 false statements.
In the attachment you will find the relevant table for skill dcs.
As with monsters, the guidelines were dependend on the character level, and you had to come up with how exactly it looked like.
I did not mean, that it wen up when you level up. But in the end it did not matter. Guidelines were based on the level, and progressed based on the assumption of certain magic items and this left the feeing that you did not progress at all and actually fell back sometimes (this is why inherit bonuses and expertise feats were intorduced).
What is the problem with that approach?
As a player you did not see: an iron door, thus I can expect DC X, or this goblin wears plate armor and a shield, so around AC X.
No, the number depended solely on challenge/monster level, so players felt a disconnet between mechanics and in game knowledge.
That was a main target of criticism and one of the main reasons to quit.

I think I got the wrong attachment, but the Skill DC table is similar IIRC.

GMforPowergamers said:

take a concept that can be martial... use the same stats, the same background and the same list of feat/stat increases as you get them

make a hexblade
make a champion fighter
make a battle master fighter
make a war domain cleric
make a melee combat bard
see what the differences are at level 9

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If you break down the numbers as you did earlier in this thread, you will find combat damage and healing wash out.

EzekielRaiden said:

Er...no. Sorry. Having someone who can do 80% of my job and also 100% of his job and also 60% of a third person's job is not "balancing out." It just, flat, isn't.

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The combat damage balances out, part of the 4E legacy in 5E.

Warpiglet-7 said:

Sure. That said extra attacks at higher level plus action surges are more…martial. I also think that the lack of strength can be an issue for some situations.

That said I have the unpopular opinion that the hexblade was a mistake.

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i can respect your thought on hexblade... we have been refluffing it as our fighters for a couple years though

GMforPowergamers said:

i can respect your thought on hexblade... we have been refluffing it as our fighters for a couple years though

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I won’t play them. Have several str based blade pact warlocks…but that is my own hang up.

It’s just a bit too much/easy

UngeheuerLich said:

@EzekielRaiden
Thanks for that post. I read it later.

No, i have not made 2 false statements.
In the attachment you will find the relevant table for skill dcs.
As with monsters, the guidelines were dependend on the character level, and you had to come up with how exactly it looked like.
I did not mean, that it wen up when you level up. But in the end it did not matter. Guidelines were based on the level, and progressed based on the assumption of certain magic items and this left the feeing that you did not progress at all and actually fell back sometimes (this is why inherit bonuses and expertise feats were intorduced).
What is the problem with that approach?
As a player you did not see: an iron door, thus I can expect DC X, or this goblin wears plate armor and a shield, so around AC X.
No, the number depended solely on challenge/monster level, so players felt a disconnet between mechanics and in game knowledge.
That was a main target of criticism and one of the main reasons to quit.

I think I got the wrong attachment, but the Skill DC table is similar IIRC.

Click to expand...

Again: these things are for when you need to determine what a skill DC should be, once you already know that this is something that is easy, ordinary, hard, etc. for a character of a given level. The following table, for example, was published in the Rules Compendium:

Forcing Open Doors​

Usually a creature can open a door simply by using a minor action (see “Action Types"). Sometimes, though, adventurers encounter doors that are stuck or locked. Forcing open a stuck or a locked door requires a standard action and a successful Strength check.
The Force Open Doors table shows some sample doors and includes the Strength check DC to force or break them open.

Strength Check to...	DC
Break down wooden door	13
Break down reinforced door	16
Break down barred door	20
Break down iron door	23
Break down adamantine door	27
Break through force portal	30
Force open wooden portcullis	21
Force open iron portcullis	28
Force open adamantine portcullis	35

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As you can see, these things have fixed DCs. They are NOT scaled to match the party. That's because automatically scaling DCs to match the party is not what the rules do. It's exactly the same as the other charts on page 42, such as the one about how much damage an improvised attack should do. The Page 42 DCs are for aiding improvisation, not for rigid lockstep level-scaling. A character does not automatically do more damage with attacks simply because they are higher level. Instead, once it's apparent that the player wants to make an improvised attack, then the chart will tell you what is an appropriate effect, given the effort put in and how replicable the attack is (e.g., if they're throwing over a burning brazier, meaning it can't be used again, it is reasonable that it should do more damage than something which can be used repeatedly, unless you as DM feel that that is not correct.)

All of these tables are purely to provide easier DMing, by making improvisation rigorous and well-balanced. They perform that function exceedingly well. They emphatically DO NOT tell the DM to make it so every single skill check the players make MUST have a DC scaled to the character's level.

Warpiglet-7 said:

I think I’m all of this we miss something. Some people want to play a non magical warrior.

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and I have acknowadged and even supported this

I want fighters to have cool exploits not spells

I want the 4e warlord ranger fighter and rogue and they ARE non magical.

Warpiglet-7 said:

What you are saying is that action surges, extra hit points, generally heavier armor and strength and more attacks at higher level are not worth as much to you as spells.

I get it! I can’t argue with your preferences.

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but we can make a martial sub system that is at least close?

Warpiglet-7 said:

And yet…people keep playing fighters. Unless the argument is “they just don’t know better” I would say the need for better balance is a personal preference not indicative of the game’s quality or sustainability.

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yes people play the game that is not a gotcha... I want us to ALL have fun playing

Warpiglet-7 said:

And you freely said balance is more fun for you. I cannot argue with that.

I do think 1e did better here. Magic users could lose a spell when hit for 1 pt of damage. The fighter was very necessary. Or at least men at arms that were hired.

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i didn't play 1e really i came in at 2e...and i often sing the praises of TSR D&d

Warpiglet-7 said:

There was no tie to toe success for magic users in my groups. We seemed to have more of a football team experience: we need the linemen and wide receivers with our quarterbacks. That has admittedly changed.

By trying to balance things out there are no true critical roles. People do fine without healers and to be honest, vanilla fighters.

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I don't know why balance is equals bland. 4e had 4 roles.

if anything I want MORE role protection. I eant more key words and more showing of the math.

Warpiglet-7 said:

I won’t play them. Have several str based blade pact warlocks…but that is my own hang up.

It’s just a bit too much/easy

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Actually, if you pay a bit attention to encumbrance, then the advantage of the hexblade is smaller.
Also when I noticed, that all abilities also work with eldritch blast I was more fearful that someone just made an eldritch blast hexblade.

I second that the hexblade was a mistake. Not because it is much more powerful, but because it looks way more powerful.

Parmandur said:

The combat damage balances out, part of the 4E legacy in 5E.

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no it doesn't I showed my math

UngeheuerLich said:

Actually, if you pay a bit attention to encumbrance, then the advantage of the hexblade is smaller.

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only if you plan on carrying weird extra stuff... a character with an 11 str can carry 165lbs... that puts most marines to shame