D&D 5E DM's: How Do You Justify NPC's Having Magic/Abilities That Don't Exist in the PHB?

Lanefan said:

Then what tangible reward do I get for killing them,

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So the joy of saving the village is out and unacceptable? Why does it need to be tangible? Greed seems to be the only motive you consider valid.

Lanefan said:

if I can't take their stuff?

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Have the shamans stick its not a "magic item" just a cheap tool ... have fun. Nobody said you cannot take it.

pontinyc said:

Looking for some input on how you DM's justify in-game mechanics or magical effects that some npc's may have, but aren't listed in the PHB? For ex., you want your BBEG to appear in hologram/projected form before the pc's and kill one of his own minions with Power Word: Kill. His projected image then sits and has a conversation with the PC's, inviting them to join his forces.

Fun idea but there's nothing in the PHB to allow this specifically. How does one justify the fact that this individual has access to magic that isn't available to the PC's and what might you say to the party wizard who says they want to learn to do that?

Many thanks in advance for any thoughts!

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Late to the party on this one, but as the DM do whatever you want.

FWIW, this is pretty much what project image did in AD&D (in case no one mentioned it yet... I haven't looked through the thread):

Thommy H-H said:

Right, but that's exactly what I mean: that's taking the game mechanics and abstracting them into an in-universe narrative. The hypothetical characters in that scenario aren't talking about taking levels in Fighter or getting an Extra Attack: they're using generic terms that we understand don't directly map onto the procedure of rolling particular dice.

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It maps more than closely enough for most purposes, I think.

Thommy H-H said:

By the same argument, how does a character distinguish in-universe between something they could learn X months down the line adventuring and something an NPC just did that they can't? From the character's perspective, both of these things (say, the PHB spell fireball vs. 'Fiery Blast (Recharge 5-6)' on some villain's statblock) are currently unknown abilities. They don't know - or shouldn't know, I would argue - that one is available to them as they gain experience and one isn't.

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Well, first off my position would be that if it's a normal mortal being e.g. an Elf or a Tiefling doing the Fiery Blast then that ability should also be available to PCs (of those species at the very least), at whatever level makes sense. If this isn't wanted then that Fiery Blast gets converted to ordinary Fireball specifically so it follows the same in-setting framework for magic as do the PCs. And if it's not a normal PC-playable mortal but is instead a demon or something, then it doesn't matter, as I don't have to worry about lining them up.

Secondly, low-level PC wizards would know they can aspire to one day cast Fireball; much like a 1st-year college student knows she can one day aspire to a doctorate degree.

Thommy H-H said:

And even as a game structure, tbh, how are players even picking up on the fact that Fiery Blast (or whatever) is more damaging than a regular fireball? Or that it recharges rather than uses a spell slot? Or that the gladiator is rolling extra dice for damage without a feat that's in their book? Just...don't tell them.

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For one thing, in my game at least, it's usually very obvious if someone is casting a spell provided you can see and-or hear them; meaning a fireball-like effect coming out of someone who didn't just cast a spell is going to raise eyebrows. Was it from a wand? Or, how did that just happen - and why can't I do it that way too?

Casting also takes time - I don't subscribe to the 3e-4e-5e idea of spells resolving immediately on the same initiative count as they are cast, instead they have casting times as per 0e-1e-2e - and there's no common means of casting spells without literally going through the motions (i.e. no still-spell or silent-spell metamagics). The time factor makes casting easier to interrupt; this along with the no-metamagics is very intentional as they serves as means of reining in the casters a bit.

Lanefan said:

Indeed. There's also Clerical magic (divine), Bardic magic (sound), psionic pseudo-magic, and inherent magic (e.g. supernatural abilities).

And each of those have their own distinct paradigms for how they work; and their own classes and-or species that make use of those paradigms.

Something not using one of the arcane-divine-sonic paradigms and yet still behaving like a spell breaks the structure that the game - and by extension the game's physics - is built around. No thanks.

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Never been true.

Monsters have always had “innate spells” which bypass all sorts of player side mechanics. Never minding straight up effects that pcs can never learn.

Garthanos said:

Reasonable? how?, that is not how magic focuses work? Why are you assuming something is a magic item that creates an independent magical effect when those are rare and expensive and focuses are cheap and common and do not work that way. You are making unreasonable assumptions.

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When a Hobgoblin [skirmisher?] is hitting the PCs with a staff that delivers a whack of electrical damage every now and then (this is straight out of H-1), that electric shock ain't coming from the Hobgoblin. He's not a caster.

So where's it coming from? All that's left as a possible source is the staff itself.

Garthanos said:

You want it to be silly bad wrong fun and are making incorrect and unreasonable assumptions AND demanding you be told every time otherwise.... no Lan its not a magic item just cause he used it doing some sort of magic you do not know, move along.

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As the DM trying to run the module, I think it's a reasonable expectation for the module to lay out how things work when they don't match the default; in this case, how a non-caster can generate a magical effect without use of a magic item.

Garthanos said:

The adventure will tell the DM if it is a magic item (those are the exception).

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Hussar said:

Never been true.

Monsters have always had “innate spells” which bypass all sorts of player side mechanics.

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Monsters that are not PC-playable, sure. Gelatinous Cube paralysis on touch? Bring it on. Rust Monster doing its thing? Great! Dragon blasting the room with fire breath? Love it.

If the "monsters" are also PC-playable, however, IMO they all have to follow the rules for PCs...or, the PCs have to follow the rules as if they were NPCs/monsters. Whichever, as long as all Elves or all Gnomes or all Kobolds in the setting are built on the same chassis as all other Elves or all other Gnomes or all other Kobolds.

The concept of inhabitants of the setitng running around with little "PC" or "NPC" stickers on their foreheads is utterly ludicrous, yet that's exactly what these needless differentiations lead to.

One thing to keep in mind is that having PCs and NPCs of a species be mechanically the same doesn't mean a DM has to go through all the headache of rolling each NPC up as if it were a PC; which is a complaint I hear repeatedly. Just assign stuff...with the strict proviso that whatever you assign must be within the limits of what a normal roll-up could produce.

Hussar said:

Never minding straight up effects that pcs can never learn.

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Again, if it's a non-PC-playable monster e.g. a demon, this is fine.

Garthanos said:

So the joy of saving the village is out and unacceptable? Why does it need to be tangible?

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Because tangible spends.

Garthanos said:

Greed seems to be the only motive you consider valid.

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Pretty much, yes; until such level as political/social/etc. power can also enter the equation.

With nearly every character I've ever played, of many different types, personalities, alignments, and so forth, I almost never adventure to be a hero. I do it to get rich so I can eventually afford whatever ultimate goal I've set for myself as a character; be it building a castle, or usurping a throne, or designing and creating new magics or technologies, or whatever. Any heroism that happens is usually an unintended side effect.

Garthanos said:

Have the shamans stick its not a "magic item" just a cheap tool ... have fun. Nobody said you cannot take it.

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And his jewelry, and his spell components, and his money, and his holy symbol (if he has one)...

Lanefan said:

One thing to keep in mind is that having PCs and NPCs of a species be mechanically the same doesn't mean a DM has to go through all the headache of rolling each NPC up as if it were a PC; which is a complaint I hear repeatedly. Just assign stuff...with the strict proviso that whatever you assign must be within the limits of what a normal roll-up could produce.

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I generally do the same, but with the large caveat that a PC can be pretty much anything if the player approaches me and asks. Therefore, I give that same flexibility to my NPCs.

The most important principle for my worldbuilding is that every character, PC or NPC, is unique. Players use classes because they're convenient metagame tools, not something that exists within the fictional world. Characters belonging to a certain order or magical tradition might have similar abilities because of their training, but no one has 100% the same abilities.

As an example, one of the main NPCs in my last campaign was a elf spatial magic expert. He could cast magic missile at will, armor of space (force variant of armor of agathys) once per short rest, and open up magic portals at-will. Besides being able to craft cheap teleportation circles via ritual, those were his only abilities. He was PC-like in the fact he allied with the party, and I would have been happy to allow any of the players to use him as a PC if desired.

Could the PCs have gained those abilities? In the fiction, the NPC had spent decades honing his skills, and was considered something of a savant when it came to spatial magic. Like the PCs, he was unique. Reading a spellbook and just gaining those abilities was a nonstarter. But he had nothing that I wouldn't have allowed a PC to have with enough levels and backstory.

I don't necessarily see abilities as something the characters even know they have. They are tools the player can use to weave the fiction, not "tricks" the characters have. The ferocious warrior doesn't know he has this trick where he can strike every enemy within reach, any more than Conan does (in the scenes where he bursts into a group of guards and kills them all.). It's just that sometimes he gets pissed and goes postal. "I dunno, I just try to hit them all before they hit me."

There are exceptions. A Paladin knows when he uses his Divine Sense, but he doesn't call it that, and doesn't know he has a certain number of uses per day.

I'm not saying I'm doing this the "right" way. The right way isn't prescribed; we each get to interpret it however we like.

Thommy H-H said:

Right, but that's exactly what I mean: that's taking the game mechanics and abstracting them into an in-universe narrative. The hypothetical characters in that scenario aren't talking about taking levels in Fighter or getting an Extra Attack: they're using generic terms that we understand don't directly map onto the procedure of rolling particular dice.

By the same argument, how does a character distinguish in-universe between something they could learn X months down the line adventuring and something an NPC just did that they can't? From the character's perspective, both of these things (say, the PHB spell fireball vs. 'Fiery Blast (Recharge 5-6)' on some villain's statblock) are currently unknown abilities. They don't know - or shouldn't know, I would argue - that one is available to them as they gain experience and one isn't.

And even as a game structure, tbh, how are players even picking up on the fact that Fiery Blast (or whatever) is more damaging than a regular fireball? Or that it recharges rather than uses a spell slot? Or that the gladiator is rolling extra dice for damage without a feat that's in their book? Just...don't tell them.

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Well, one of the ways they can pick up on it nowadays is that Counterspell inexplicably doesn't work.