Faolyn
(she/her)
Well, you would be factually incorrect, then.
Also, freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. And sometimes, that means other people have the freedom to say that they don't want your slavery in their elf game.
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D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…
- Thread starter overgeeked
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Also, freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences. And sometimes, that means other people have the freedom to say that they don't want your slavery in their elf game.
Scribe
Legend
Its 100% about social norms or cultural mores or people being too sensitive/not sensitive, and its 100% because slavery is at the core of it.
If we lived in a world without Twitter and social media, Dark Sun would be made again as it was, and its 100% because of the shifting social norms as you say, and the degree of vocalization that would be produced if Dark Sun was faithfully updated and released which is why its NOT being done.
Especially after the Spelljammer fiasco, its 100% down to this. EDIT: Oh, and doing Dark Sun after the avalanche of bad press from the OGL situation? Non-starter.
I dont think its even a question really?
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Faolyn
(she/her)
I have fond memories of reading HoL. I think I still have my copy.In the past White Wolf had a couple of imprints, one was:
The title that reminds me the most of this brand was: HoL (Human occupied Landfill), but there are more notorious books under that imprint. But White Wolf was already pretty niche, dark and horrific, especially when their most popular IP was Vampire: The Masquarade. Still they found it necessary to create a separate imprint for their mature/adult themes. I suspect that even the names White Wolf and Black Dog would be big no-no's these days. And the amount of trouble such adult themes would bring, would not be worth it to WotC (at this time). Getting trusted 3rd party publisher to do DS (and the like) I also do not see happening, as that feels like as them being endorsed by WotC and that would invite too much trouble again. Just opening up all the D&D settings might be disconnected enough from WotC to fly under the radar amidst tens of thousands of other digital products...
Source:
Black Dog
For other meanings of the term Black Dog, see Black Dog (disambiguation). Black Dog, also called Black Dog Game Factory was an imprint of White Wolf that handled roleplaying games and supplements with mature and adult themes. This definition applies to not only content such as excessive violence...whitewolf.fandom.com
Would never play it, though.
Scribe
Legend
Considering the training provided to IT folks these days, you would likely be correct.
OldOwlbear
Explorer
That’s the crux of the issue I think and has been debated by political theorists and philosophers for centuries now. Tocqueville is the most prominent in my mind if I remember correctly. What is the point of a legal right to freedom of expression if private individuals can shout down each others’ expression through, in this case, subjective moral standards via tools such as social media.
One of the original points argued here as to why WotC is not doing Dark Sun is for fear of public backlash. My argument, and that of others I believe, is that this is unhealthy for the industry and for creativity.
I feel both sides of this topic have argued at times that if someone wants to include something they can do it on their own, or they can exclude it on their own, and not expect WotC to appeal to their specific needs. However, the bigger issue in my mind should be that we shouldn’t be happy with a standard in the industry that allows personal morals to create fear of backlash that incentivizes corporate interests to curtail their artists.
How we would address that is not an answer I have now, but I feel like threads like this and the poll at the start are at least helpful, if not perfectly precise or scientific.
LuisCarlos17f
Legend
OK, in my remade DS there is no slavery, but citizens sentenced to community work or forced labor because they did not pay their taxes.
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Now seriously, I suspect the possible origin of that potential controversy is not from the fandom, but other group. If we could try reason with them then we could find a solution about rules of "fair play", but I am afair they are the type of people when when you give in once they demand more, even reaching ridiculous levels.
I can understand the serious risk of fall into frivolity if PCs are allowed to own slaves. Then the slaves can't be owned by private citizens, only "hired", and the state would enjoy the monopoly of the "rent" thanks special tax.
I wonder if the taboo is because they know some thing, and then they believe in the next years the defense of the nature will be not a confortable threat by fault of the "false prophets".
* We can play our own version of DS with only an update of the crunch, and the metaplot of the Athasian tablelands to be continued or rewritten by other way.
thenextweb.com
Slavery in a cartoon for children? Klugertown in My Litle Pony.
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Now seriously, I suspect the possible origin of that potential controversy is not from the fandom, but other group. If we could try reason with them then we could find a solution about rules of "fair play", but I am afair they are the type of people when when you give in once they demand more, even reaching ridiculous levels.
I can understand the serious risk of fall into frivolity if PCs are allowed to own slaves. Then the slaves can't be owned by private citizens, only "hired", and the state would enjoy the monopoly of the "rent" thanks special tax.
I wonder if the taboo is because they know some thing, and then they believe in the next years the defense of the nature will be not a confortable threat by fault of the "false prophets".
* We can play our own version of DS with only an update of the crunch, and the metaplot of the Athasian tablelands to be continued or rewritten by other way.
Victoria 3 will simulate the slave trade. Should it?
Paradox Interactive's upcoming historical grand strategy title, Victoria 3, will ship with a fully-functioning slave trade system. We have some thoughts.
thenextweb.com
Slavery in a cartoon for children? Klugertown in My Litle Pony.
It's also kind of the central thread of plot that's been woven through the hasbro IP known as transformers for decades.OK, in my remade DS there is no slavery, but citizens sentenced to community work or forced labor because they did not pay their taxes.
---
Now seriously, I suspect the possible origin of that potential controversy is not from the fandom, but other group. If we could try reason with them then we could find a solution about rules of "fair play", but I am afair they are the type of people when when you give in once they demand more, even reaching ridiculous levels.
I can understand the serious risk of fall into frivolity if PCs are allowed to own slaves. Then the slaves can't be owned by private citizens, only "hired", and the state would enjoy the monopoly of the "rent" thanks special tax.
I wonder if the taboo is because they know some thing, and then they believe in the next years the defense of the nature will be not a confortable threat by fault of the "false prophets".
* We can play our own version of DS with only an update of the crunch, and the metaplot of the Athasian tablelands to be continued or rewritten by other way.
Victoria 3 will simulate the slave trade. Should it?
Paradox Interactive's upcoming historical grand strategy title, Victoria 3, will ship with a fully-functioning slave trade system. We have some thoughts.
Slavery in a cartoon for children? Klugertown in My Litle Pony.
View attachment 276748
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
That may be OK for some elements of the industry, but it's probably not going to work for the big tentpole organizations like WotC that have the largest segment of the market and, thus, the more to lose from backlashes within it.
Freedom of expression has always implied the freedom of response to that expression. And if the person or corporation considering making a statement is unwilling to weather that response, that's not a negation or limit on that freedom. They can choose to weather that response and take what consequences they are due. In this case, WotC is freely choosing not to weather the response that would come from publishing an updated Dark Sun at this time.
Really the problem isn't problematic content. There are a lot of works and even games that include problematic content of all kinds. They find an audience. Some can be quite distasteful in my opinion - but that is my opinion, and something to criticise, etc. etc.
I think the problem is that, are there writers in WoTC right now that could handle it with the care and attention it would need?
Slavery would need to be handled very carefully. I suspect a huge reason why Paizo kept slavery as a thing in the lore but won't expand upon it or write new adventures around is that they believe they don't have the writers or writing staff to really handle it well without making a screw up in some manner that would piss off a lot of people and the people within the company or who work with the company.
That last part might be particularly key considering the TTRPG and it's size. With everything that's happened and the choices WoTC has made over the years, I suspect they do not want to cause discord within themselves or with their contributors. They are the biggest company by far and, as far as I can tell, have the best pay and decent enough / tolerable conditions - but there's a certain limit you will hit where people will start to avoid you cause they're not very happy with what you produce.
I personally doubt the current WoTC could handle this well. There are probably voices and people who can however.
I think the problem is that, are there writers in WoTC right now that could handle it with the care and attention it would need?
Slavery would need to be handled very carefully. I suspect a huge reason why Paizo kept slavery as a thing in the lore but won't expand upon it or write new adventures around is that they believe they don't have the writers or writing staff to really handle it well without making a screw up in some manner that would piss off a lot of people and the people within the company or who work with the company.
That last part might be particularly key considering the TTRPG and it's size. With everything that's happened and the choices WoTC has made over the years, I suspect they do not want to cause discord within themselves or with their contributors. They are the biggest company by far and, as far as I can tell, have the best pay and decent enough / tolerable conditions - but there's a certain limit you will hit where people will start to avoid you cause they're not very happy with what you produce.
I personally doubt the current WoTC could handle this well. There are probably voices and people who can however.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
That's just it - TSR caving to the Satanic panic in how it designed 2e was a huge mistake then; I'd say very much more so and on a bigger scale than is WotC's decision not to reboot Dark Sun.
Caving to suppressionists like the Satanic panic crowd only serves to encourage them.
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