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D&D 5E You Cant Fix The Class Imbalances IMHO

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
And IMO, you can fix class imbalances.

You just have to create an image of what each class looks like at every tier of play.

50-75% of 5e class imbalance is that class features were more about gridfilling the class feature section than imaging what the character as a whole looks like and functions.

That's where the whole "ranger/sorcerer/monk sucks" comes from. There was more focus on "getting something very level than" "what you have at that level". AKA "Why did a ranger only FE and NE at level 1?"
 

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Vaalingrade

Legend
That's kind of the problem with pointing out potential flaws in 5th edition. It's so darned successful that just about any flaw can be ignored because it doesn't really matter.
Imagine if the same defense kept getting deployed when it comes to Facebook or EA or Comcast.

Or Michaël Bay.

He makes money, therefore your criticism is invalid!
 


MGibster

Legend
He makes money, therefore your criticism is invalid!
I think there's some truth to that. Or if not invalid certainly insignifcant, inconsequential, and amounting to little more than a burp during a hurricane. And, wow, did that ever cause a cascade of thoughts leading me through a dark descent into an existential crisis. But the night is always darkest before the dawn and I have seen the light. My criticisms are insignificant! Now I know what they mean when they say the truth will set you free.
 



EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
OneD&D is a marketing gambit designed to financially capitalize on the 50th anniversary. Changes are minor in substance but flashy in presentation.
I mean, they were fully prepared to axe the Warlock spellcasting method just one (full/proper) playtest packet back. I wouldn't call that mere flashy presentation. A lot of people were not happy about that change (myself among them; the Warlock mechanical structure is one of the better ideas 5e has produced...it just falls squarely into the same balance problems as other SR-based characters.)
 

ECMO3

Hero
You just have to create an image of what each class looks like at every tier of play.

For me, this is where the discussion kind of goes off the rails. I think the player should decide what his image of the character looks like and should pick the class that offers the mechanics that most closely align to that idea.

Suggesting game designers should create an image of what the PCs will look like at each tier is a big red flag for me in modern gaming. I think this idea ties to a bygone era that is not in line with modern player expectations.

There is also a rather large group of players that expect to get something at every level. Many are unsatified with a 1d8+con hps as the only boon for leveling up.
 

Apropos of the thread topic, I find the point raised that class imbalance is not, for most players, the big deal it can be to the "terminally online" crowd because it doesn't interfere with their realisation of their character concept (up until the point where it does, of course) to be very insightful. The neo-trad play of modern D&D just requires that characters can (a) feel awesome for their players to play and (b) fulfill the concept they desire (subject to the way that certain classes are more suitable for some concepts than others).

Again, this implies that there should never be player dissatisfaction from the "weaker" classes/subclasses, so long as the concept still appears. WotC's actual player satisfaction data proves that (a) people do keep playing these options but (b) their player satisfaction rating is low, often very low, sometimes less than 50%. (IIRC, Champion was specifically 54%, which if you account for margins of error, that's effectively the same as "people dislike it about as much as they like it.") Unless you think WotC is conducting bad surveys with faulty data, I don't see how it is possible to hold the "players really don't care at all about effectiveness, only concept." They DO care about concept! If they didn't, we wouldn't see so many of these underpowered classes and subclasses. But they also do care to at least some degree about effectiveness, which is why they keep playing things they're unhappy with.

Because it is complicated. Because playing something is not identical to loving it. Because you can love specific parts of something while hating or just not really liking other parts. Because it is possible to feel, intuitively, that something isn't quite right without knowing what exactly is wrong.
I'm not really speaking to effectiveness in and of itself - rather, inter-class balance. (And, to be sure, I do think a better-balanced D&D would be a better-designed D&D, as per my remarks on another thread discussing a related topic.)

Contrary to your paraphrase ("players really don't care at all about effectiveness, only concept"), which I must point out is... not really related at all to what I wrote, I would expect that players who prioritise "realise a character concept that feels awesome in play" for their gameplay experience actually are going to be concerned with effectiveness, and are, of necessity, going to be unsatisfied if a character class or subclass that intuitively seems like it ought to be the correct choice for any given character concept is not up to the task. A character who is ineffective as a result of their subclass isn't going to feel very awesome in play, after all.

For instance, I expect, say, berserkers don't score poorly on player satisfaction surveys because clerics or druids or wizards have a wider breadth of capabilities. I expect they score poorly on such surveys because they can't even enable playing a berserker the way you would expect to play them - e.g. frenzying as often as possible and striking fear into the hearts of your enemies. (The berserker is notoriously terrible at that last option, being able to use an entire action to maybe make one creature frightened of them.)

So while I would agree inter-class balance matters, and for good reason, there is a certain extent to which it only matters if it matters to the player base writ large.
 

And IMO, you can fix class imbalances.

You just have to create an image of what each class looks like at every tier of play.

50-75% of 5e class imbalance is that class features were more about gridfilling the class feature section than imaging what the character as a whole looks like and functions.

That's where the whole "ranger/sorcerer/monk sucks" comes from. There was more focus on "getting something very level than" "what you have at that level". AKA "Why did a ranger only FE and NE at level 1?"
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