D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

Maxperson · Nov 20, 2023

kigmatzomat said:
I don't want to derail this so for those who care

kigmatzomat said:
Ever had a party get 'sniped' by an aimed shot of iron ball from a mile away able to hit a specific horse-sized target? Because that's what counter-battery fire is: Cannons shooting other cannons at that range.

Those fast moving zig-zagging cannons! Sure, if the party was stationary

kigmatzomat said:
Although with a group they likely use case shot, where a cheap tin can would be filled with 50-100 musket balls. Aim twenty yards in front of the party, the can bursts and create a fan of lead, each ball able to shoot through multiple people or a horse.

The party isn't moving straight. Are you really saying that they can accurately change the cannon's aim to accurately follow a very small, fast moving, zig-zagging party?

kigmatzomat said:
So the party responds with overwhelming force yeah? Wait, no, nothing has close to a mile range. Hope you have a caster with teleport still alive, because you now need to run four thousand+ feet to get in bow range. Lets say magic-boosted speed of 90, take double moves so thats 22 rounds.

No need. The shot was where the party used to be, because they aren't sitting still like a cannon.

kigmatzomat said:
Yeah but now the PCs with longbows can start to shoot back. That single cannon will go silent quickly. Except cannons are rarely singletons. They are units. Napoleon would take a 100-200 cannons on campaign and concentrate fire on specific targets.

Sure, but this is about the BBEG by himself shooting a cannon at the PCs. That was the suggestion. Not hundreds of cannons with thousands of people. There is one cannon and one guy. Maybe the guy has a group to help him, but it's still only one and still isn't going to be able to accurately track a fast moving, zig-zagging small party of adventurers.

kigmatzomat said:
How do they survive 18+ cannon blasts on that run to bow range?

By not being there when the shot hits, because the cannon shot where they used to be since can't track them that quickly.

Distracted DM · Nov 20, 2023

Mort said:
You want to see combat grind to a halt. Try running a few high level combats (of any complexity) with a Peace domain cleric!

Wow, that was painful and I wasn't even DMing!

I .. I don't care for a lot of the design stuff that came out around and after Tasha's. Peace and Twilight...

Anyway, I never got to see the Twilight Cleric get past mid-tier, that party wiped. If he'd used his Twilight aura instead of holding onto it worrying about a later fight, or if they'd stopped to short rest first so he'd have multiple Channels back, the fight probably would've been way easier rather than a hard-fought TPK.

kigmatzomat · Nov 20, 2023

MNblockhead said:
The wizard wished for an upcast forbiddance spell that would cover the entire massive "room" and be able to be cast in one action. I felt that was a fairly reasonable use of wish and let it work as intended, he successfully made his roll and didn't lose his ability to ever cast wish again.

I am confused. All wishes are cast in one action and ignore material components. Forbiddance is a 6th level spell that covers a room 200ft x200ft. That'a 40 squares x 40 squares. You can't even shoot a fireball all the way across it.

So....where was the risk of using Wish?

Mort · Nov 20, 2023

Quickleaf said:
Where was the pain point with the Peace cleric? Was it that everyone suddenly had a reaction to choose from with Protective Bond? I’m guessing that high level PCs usually have at least one reaction option already, so more an intensification of an existing problem rather than creation of a new problem from scratch. Was it having to remind everyone about the d4 from the Empowering Bond? So an intensification of the Bless problem encountered at 1st level?

Reminding everyone about the d4, reminding everyone that bless (which was also up) is different and applies differently.

The extra movement dynamic, especially figuring out who best to take any given damage.

The consternation when I took the damage for the sorcerer (I had a ton more hit points), but forgot that I was concentrating on a VERY important hypnotic pattern, who's target REALLY needed to stay charmed. That sort of thing.

It added an extra dimension on top of the existing ones.

James Gasik · Nov 20, 2023

Oofta said:
Personally I don't have a problem mixing firearms and magic. You can go several ways with this. One example would be that in close quarters combat you draw a pistol fire off a shot and then charge into battle. Maybe don't even add anything to attack and damage but proficiency bonus, which would give strength based PCs something to do while they close. Then state that armor is relatively cheap and better made, so it's effective against firearms (which it was for a long time anyway).

But anytime you have firearms you get people that want to play that gunslinger, shoot that matchlock multiple times per turn, etc.. It's bad enough that with a feat people can shoot a heavy crossbow multiple times.

Yeah, the crossbow thing is a bit absurd. I suppose it's just WotC doing an end run around having double crossbows or repeating crossbows cluttering up their list of weapons. Personally I'd rather have more weapon options in the PHB.

What I'd tell a would-be gunslinger is that if you want multiple shots, carry multiple guns, lol.

Oofta · Nov 20, 2023

kigmatzomat said:
I don't want to derail this so for those who care

Ever had a party get 'sniped' by an aimed shot of iron ball from a mile away able to hit a specific horse-sized target? Because that's what counter-battery fire is: Cannons shooting other cannons at that range.

Although with a group they likely use case shot, where a cheap tin can would be filled with 50-100 musket balls. Aim twenty yards in front of the party, the can bursts and create a fan of lead, each ball able to shoot through multiple people or a horse.

So the party responds with overwhelming force yeah? Wait, no, nothing has close to a mile range. Hope you have a caster with teleport still alive, because you now need to run four thousand+ feet to get in bow range. Lets say magic-boosted speed of 90, take double moves so thats 22 rounds.

Huh, that's 2 minutes 12 seconds. Take two more shots. Except since "close" range for a cannon is at 1,000ft (or as I like to call it "still well out of bow & spell range") they switch to canister for the second, creating a cone of lead. Even at that range, grapeshot was more than likely to punch through one person to hit people behind them.

Aiming doesn't need to be precise when using a massive shotgun with a cone yards wide, fire rates can go up. One shot every 9 rounds? Every 8 rounds?

Yeah but now the PCs with longbows can start to shoot back. That single cannon will go silent quickly. Except cannons are rarely singletons. They are units. Napoleon would take a 100-200 cannons on campaign and concentrate fire on specific targets.
But lets be reasonable. Lets say there are six 12 pounders, each 75+ feet from the next, ordered to fire at a feisty group of PCs.

How do they survive 18+ cannon blasts on that run to bow range?

Big difference between firing at a fixed position that has to have line of sight to multiple targets and a moving group of individuals that can take cover and move randomly. It's still a cannon, not a machine gun.

Oofta · Nov 20, 2023

James Gasik said:
Yeah, the crossbow thing is a bit absurd. I suppose it's just WotC doing an end run around having double crossbows or repeating crossbows cluttering up their list of weapons. Personally I'd rather have more weapon options in the PHB.

What I'd tell a would-be gunslinger is that if you want multiple shots, carry multiple guns, lol.

nevin · Nov 20, 2023

Distracted DM said:
Ahhh, yeah I have to imagine "combat plays fast" is relative.
If you're finishing a 5e level 19-20 encounter in ~~<60~~ <180 mins that isn't a pushover, I can't imagine a secret that's anything other than "my players and I all know exactly what we're going to do each round, we pre-roll or roll dice online, and few surprising or unexpected events occur."

Either that, or you're upping enemy damage and lowering HP- which I have considered but never pulled the trigger on.

It's high level. You have more options, features, and dice to take into consideration- not to mention more math. The stakes are usually higher, you're more invested... Everything is going to take more time.

Honestly in my experience only if you let it, and you have to draw the line early on before it's high level and just shut down anything in game that takes more than say 1/2 hour to an hour . Might as well read a book if your going to let high level games turn into give the party time to figure out the perfect plan. Problem is once you let parties spend an hour per combat round (and yes I've seen that be the norm in a game). then the focus of the game becomes do nothing till we have the perfect plan. It's bad for the game on every level if it goes that far.

nevin · Nov 20, 2023

Minigiant said:
Striker yes.

Defender no but still very good.

. The issue is the people demanding faster turns also the same people demanding tons of options.

you can have both. You just can't let perfectionists run the time table on turns.

nevin · Nov 20, 2023

Oofta said:
View attachment 331161

lol still no different than magic items. As long as everyone has them or something with comporable range and distance it will work whichever way you go.

D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Distracted DM

Distracted DM

kigmatzomat

Hero

Mort

Legend

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun

Oofta

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Oofta

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nevin

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nevin

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nevin

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