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RPGing and imagination: a fundamental point

clearstream

(He, Him)
Except negotiation is inherently adversarial. That's what differentiates it from a discussion, conversation, or chat.
Would it be right to say that your focus here is not on hostility or selfishness, but on the possibility of dissent. That acceptance of that which is under negotiation is contingent, meaning it may be withheld.

So a great deal of RPG discussion could be conducted without participants withholding acceptance, nor even contemplating doing so.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I have been thinking of player control over their character - particularly in "neo-trad" modes of play - as providing good examples of non-contingent additions to fiction.
100% agree that negotiation need not involve hostility. And that as @Thomas Shey pointed out "not all negotiations are intrinsically selfish".

EDIT What matters to me about negotiation is the implication of contingency. When "negotiation" is used, it can turn out to imply that assertion is impossible. Which goes against observation.
One of the other players might have said (speaking as their PC) "I block my ears."
 

pemerton

Legend
Doesn't matter. Even if a check isn't required or even considered, e.g. for something as trivial as walking across a room, that action declaration has still implicitly gone through the GM's approval process as backed up by the game mechanics.
This assertion is not true of every RPG I've ever played or GMed.

The GM also has no approval process over peaceful interactions between PCs. If, in character, I and another PC agree to trade my longsword for his mace so we can each try out the other's weapon for a few combats (let's assume we're each proficient in both weapons), neither the GM nor the mechanics can step in and prevent this.
What about the chance that one or other PC accidentally cuts themself on the blade as it is being handed over?
 

pemerton

Legend
@pemerton I wondered if you take it that assertion is impossible in TTRPG? So that no participant can ever have sufficiently high-ownership (say of their character) that they can make additions to the fiction without that being contingent.
My view is that there is little, perhaps no, utility in positing such things in the abstract. And that doing so tells us little about RPG play and hence gives us little guidance to RPG design.

Consider, for instance, this:
An example is to read a transcript of play such as Dolmenwood ep 03 night and morning at the ruins of an abbey. At one point player characters are "loudly complaining about the night's sleep". But no one says what those words in fact are. That's a detail that won't get filled in. It's entirely possible in this case that one player pictures blowing on their hands and grumbling about the cold, a second imagines instead that they're stretching their back ands commenting on the stony ground, while a third has nothing particular in mind for that at all. We're more than capable of unravelling details as needed, but in this case never discover what "complaining" truly amounted to.

Later the same morning characters encounter someone "not blocking the entrance and standing outside the entrance with a spear sort of raised but shaking a little bit is a woman who was dressed head to toe in animal skins basically um expertly uh you know whatever uh skinned um and um she has uh long braids that kind of come out of this fur cap that she's wearing um like you know long dread sort of thing that kind of fall down her hair and she has like and she's baring her teeth and she's like like really scared she's got a big gap right in the middle long dirty brown locks and she's basically filthy she's shivering a little bit in the cold and she's got her spear out um at the ready and she's like peering at you guys she's like who who goes there don't come any closer". How tall is this woman? What colour are her eyes? What's her apparent age? When she speaks, what's the tone and pitch of her voice? Such details are left open for each participant to have a different - or no - draft of in their individually-maintained fictional state.

What I observe is that fictional states are "lazily" maintained.
Suppose that this transcript took place in a game in which the following additional things were true:

*The players, as their PCs, had been told to be on the lookout for a green-eyed woman;

*The GM has a note that the woman is green-eyed, but has decided not to tell the players this unless they specifically ask;

*No player asks the colour of the woman's eyes, because (i) they're careless, or (ii) they assume that this is not the woman they're looking for, because they think it's a random encounter (perhaps (iia) the GM even "faked" a die roll just before the encounter to help give this impression), or (iii) they assume the GM will tell them if someone is green-eyed, given they know that the GM knows that that is important to them, or (iv) some other reason;

*The GM subsequently conveys, in the course of play, that the woman is green-eyed - eg perhaps has a NPC remark on it, or perhaps the woman is killed and he then mentions to the players that their PCs notice her green eyes staring lifeless and glassy.​

Normally, the GM has a high degree of ownership over, and credibility in respect of, a NPC. But the scenario I just outlined seems to me to be exactly the sort of thing that might cause a group bust-up, or at least irritation and frustration, as the players might rightly feel that the GM has exercised their ownership in an unfair or even misleading way. They might think it is obvious that, if the woman was green-eyed, then their fictional position would include their PCs knowing that the woman is green-eyed; whereas the GM has deliberately allowed things to develop as if the players' fictional position included their PCs' ignorance of her green-eyed-ness (or indeed of her eye colour altogether).

The history of RPGing is rife with stuff of the sort I've just described. I've experienced it as a player. I've probably given rise to some of it as a GM, when I was inexperienced and overly influenced by advice about not giving the players a free lunch. I've read about this sort of thing in many others' posts over the years.

An analysis that retreats into abstract assertions about "prior agreements" and in-principle distributions of authority and responsibility won't change actual facts about what is involved in establishing a shared fiction, which include expectations about who is under a duty to say and do what, which in turn are related to all sorts of expectations about fictional position and what is permissible, including (for instance) when it is reasonable for the players to push back on the GM in relation to the GM's NPCs. (A paradigm of this, which tends to produce bad play, is the quest-giver who betrays the PCs. These scenarios tend to trade on a strong expectation that the players' fictional position not include doubts about the bona fides of the quest-giver, the taking up of the quest being necessary for the game to happen at all; the betrayal then trades on this - eg the PCs attend the quest-giver's house without their full accoutrement of arms and armour.)

Baker's analysis does not build in, at the ground floor, an assumption that RPGing will be successful. Rather, it builds in, at the ground floor, an understanding of what is necessary for RPGing to be successful - namely, agreement as to the shared fiction and hence the players' fictional position - and then begins the task of understanding how this success might be realised, via ownership and authority and consensus, and mechanics and whatever other methods form part of the repertoire of RPG play and hence fall within the scope of RPG design.
 
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clearstream

(He, Him)
My view is that there is little, perhaps no, utility in positing such things in the abstract. And that doing so tells us little about RPG play and hence gives us little guidance to RPG design.
Rather than abstract, it is due to observing actual play that I find it hard to dismiss assertion. Further below though, I highlight the value of keeping negotiation in mind for design.

You would need some way of (i) establishing what is permissible or not for your person to do (@Manbearcat called this "credibility testing" not far upthread), and (ii) establishing what the situation is in which your person finds themself. And because you're doing this with others, you would need a way to have everyone agree on what has been established via (i) and (ii).
Regarding (i) and (ii) a consequence of designing effective methods (i.e. "some way") is to alleviate negotiation in the moment. That is found in our understanding of rules as normative: we learn from them what to normally do in the moment.

Now suppose, further, that you want your imagination about your person to be exciting, and/or suspenseful, in the sense that your person is confronted by challenges or obstacles or conflicts, and you get the thrill of finding out whether and how they cope with them. So the ways you establish what happens next, when your person engages the situation (ie (ii) above) via their capabilities (ie (i) above), need to be different from just you making it up yourself or even you talking it through with your friends.
A good example is when you want your scene-setting to involve negotiation, so you design rules that prompt negotiation. Conversely, if you don't want your scene-setting to involve negotiation, you design rules that alleviate it, such as by assigning one participant ownership of scene-setting.

@niklinna An important difference between what I am saying and what you have been saying, then, is that negotiations implied in cases anticipated or desired to arise in play, factor into the process of rule design for them; with the result that the designed and playtested rules alleviate that same negotiation during play. In that light, see how @Manbearcat lays out examples such as "an action that the rules haven't firmly encoded" as driving negotiation in the moment... implying both that the absence of effective methods can provoke negotiation, and that the presence of effective methods ("firmly encoded") is less likely to do so.

Consider, for instance, this:
Suppose that this transcript took place in a game in which the following additional things were true:

*The players, as their PCs, had been told to be on the lookout for a green-eyed woman;​
*The GM has a note that the woman is green-eyed, but has decided not to tell the players this unless they specifically ask;​
*No player asks the colour of the woman's eyes, because (i) they're careless, or (ii) they assume that this is not the woman they're looking for, because they think it's a random encounter (perhaps (iia) the GM even "faked" a die roll just before the encounter to help give this impression), or (iii) they assume the GM will tell them if someone is green-eyed, given they know that the GM knows that that is important to them, or (iv) some other reason;​
*The GM subsequently conveys, in the course of play, that the woman is green-eyed - eg perhaps has a NPC remark on it, or perhaps the woman is killed and he then mentions to the players that their PCs notice her green eyes staring lifeless and glassy.​

Normally, the GM has a high degree of ownership over, and credibility in respect of, a NPC. But the scenario I just outlined seems to me to be exactly the sort of thing that might cause a group bust-up, or at least irritation and frustration, as the players might rightly feel that the GM has exercised their ownership in an unfair or even misleading way. They might think it is obvious that, if the woman was green-eyed, then their fictional position would include their PCs knowing that the woman is green-eyed; whereas the GM has deliberately allowed things to develop as if the players' fictional position included their PCs' ignorance of her green-eyed-ness (or indeed of her eye colour altogether).
That doesn't really respond to what I was outlining, which was not that additional things couldn't be true, but that each participant's private draft of the fiction is sketchy and incomplete. Certainly prior conversation could have established eye colour, but in this case it did not and didn't need to. In it's absence, each player could have a different eye colour in mind (or none), and that would not matter.

An analysis that retreats into abstract assertions about "prior agreements" and in-principle distributions of authority and responsibility won't change actual facts about what is involved in establishing a shared fiction, which include expectations about who is under a duty to say and do what, which in turn are related to all sorts of expectations about fictional position and what is permissible, including (for instance) when it is reasonable for the players to push back on the GM in relation to the GM's NPCs. (A paradigm of this, which tends to produce bad play, is the quest-giver who betrays the PCs. These scenarios tend to trade on a strong expectation that the players' fictional position not include doubts about the bona fides of the quest-giver, the taking up of the quest being necessary for the game to happen at all; the betrayal then trades on this - eg the PCs attend the quest-giver's house without their full accoutrement of arms and armour.)
The prior agreements I am thinking of is the game design best practice that has emerged of ensuring that principles and agenda are part of game text. I assume that those elements do useful work, rather than amounting to blank text. They do change actual facts about what is involved in establishing the shared fiction, including expectations about who is under a duty to say and do what... your bracketed example even discusses how choices in their regard impact actual play.

Apologies if I am misreading, but I do not follow why you wrote the above.

Baker's analysis does not build in, at the ground floor, an assumption that RPGing will be successful. Rather, it builds in, at the ground floor, an understanding of what is necessary for RPGing to be successful - namely, agreement as to the shared fiction and hence the players' fictional position - and then begins the task of understanding how this success might be realised, via ownership and authority and consensus, and mechanics and whatever other methods form part of the repertoire of RPG play and hence fall within the scope of RPG design.
I'd advocate differentiating between problems for RPG design, and consequences of RPG design. Negotiation is a crucial concern for the former, while success addressing its drivers alleviates it during play (where that is desired, as is quite common).
 

bloodtide

Legend
Doesn't matter. Even if a check isn't required or even considered, e.g. for something as trivial as walking across a room, that action declaration has still implicitly gone through the GM's approval process as backed up by the game mechanics.

This assertion is not true of every RPG I've ever played or GMed.
The split between the two game Styles is interesting.


On one side, the Classic side, also the side I'm on the DM is the all powerful master of the universe. The game, story, plot and everything else are all roughly 99% all the DM. Of course, the DM is also doing 99% of the work, so it's natural. Sure a player can make a vague suggestion, to be approved by the DM on high. And if the suggestion is approved, then the DM takes it and makes it their own and the player looses all power....other then they can say they make the vague suggestion". The players have some control over their character, but only 1/3 of the character. The player only controls the characters conscious mind. The DM has control over the characters unconscious mind and non conscious mind(feelings, instincts, etc).

Any action, no matter how slight, is said with "DM my character is attempting this action" for the DMs approval. Even a simple act goes through the DM. Though many DMs do just handwave simple meaningless fluff actions.

As this game style is 100% DM approved the players can take actions outside, beyond, around, next to or just ignoring the game rules. Or in other words: the players can role play actions and have the DM approve or disapprove them.


Then there is the Other Side. On this side the DM does slightly less work, like 98% of everything, the DM is careful to never say that. On this side, the DM willing gives up all their power to make it a game, story, plot and everything by only the players. This DM tosses around all the buzz words like "corroborative storytelling" and "everyone is a player...except for that one player called 'dm' for not reason".

In this game the players say what they want, and the DM does it. The players are free to do anything, by the rules, and the DM must accept any and all player actions.

As this game style has the DM with no power, player moves must be made within the rules nearly always. Without DM approval, the only thing to "tell" everyone anything are the rules. Or in other words: the players must make game rule actions when they take any action.


Interesting two sides....
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
IMG_9771.jpeg
 

pemerton

Legend
The split between the two game Styles is interesting.

<snip>

Then there is the Other Side. On this side the DM does slightly less work, like 98% of everything, the DM is careful to never say that. On this side, the DM willing gives up all their power to make it a game, story, plot and everything by only the players. This DM tosses around all the buzz words like "corroborative storytelling" and "everyone is a player...except for that one player called 'dm' for not reason".

In this game the players say what they want, and the DM does it. The players are free to do anything, by the rules, and the DM must accept any and all player actions.

As this game style has the DM with no power, player moves must be made within the rules nearly always. Without DM approval, the only thing to "tell" everyone anything are the rules. Or in other words: the players must make game rule actions when they take any action.


Interesting two sides....
I just thought I would say, given that I was quoted, that what is described here has ZERO connection to any RPGing I have ever been involved in.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Would it be right to say that your focus here is not on hostility or selfishness, but on the possibility of dissent. That acceptance of that which is under negotiation is contingent, meaning it may be withheld.
Dissent isn't really what I meant, as to me dissent implies a minority stance or opinion that might not be discussable-awayable.

I'm more looking at not just the possiblity of disagreement in the moment (possibly including several divergent stances instead of just two) but the certainty of it; as without disagreement there's nothing that requires negotiation, and thus no negotiation occurs.
So a great deal of RPG discussion could be conducted without participants withholding acceptance, nor even contemplating doing so.
Yes, and this discussion does not IMO fall under the "negotiation" tent.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Conversely, if you don't want your scene-setting to involve negotiation, you design rules that alleviate it, such as by assigning one participant ownership of scene-setting.
There is a sense that I get in this thread as some people trying to purposefully exclude traditional gaming (i.e., D&D) from the framing of negotiated imagination that Baker establishes as a sort of exceptionalism regardless of the merits of Baker's arguments. This is to say, there seems to be a desire from a few other arguments to frame "negotiated imagination" or just "negotiation" as something that happens in "those games," but that is entirely absent or minimal in "our games." However, Baker's examples seem to have D&D in mind. Despite that, there seems to be little attempts to earnestly engage the merits of his argument, as if Baker's thesis somehow precludes the above:
1. Sometimes, not much at all. The right participant said it, at an appropriate moment, and everybody else just incorporates it smoothly into their imaginary picture of the situation. "An orc! Yikes! Battlestations!" This is how it usually is for participants with high ownership of whatever they're talking about: GMs describing the weather or the noncombat actions of NPCs, players saying what their characters are wearing or thinking.
 

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