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D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

The Scythian

Explorer
You can ask! If You buy a building and I’m a tenant and the previous landlord said they’ll never put my rent up. You feel the circumstances have changed and write asking for a rent increase. I respond to you tbat the previous landlord said it would never go up and that I don’t want an increase and my neighbors write in support of this. If you withdrew the suggestion within 3 weeks, and publicly announced there would be no increase and never would. I would take that as a win. I don’t think the landlord is out of line for asking. If they listen that’s a good thing.
It seems like you don't remember (or never actually understood) what WotC tried to pull. If you haven't read it in a while (or haven't read it at all), Linda Codega's article is a good starting point.

WotC circulated a version of the new OGL (which was an OGL in name only) to larger creators at some point before November 10th, 2022. They later tried to claim that this was a draft that they put out to get people's opinions, but there's no evidence that this was the case, and we know that those creators were also given contracts to sign, so it seems unlikely. WotC's original plan was to release the new agreement on January 4th, 2023 and require licensees who had been using the original OGL to sign it by January 13th, at which point they intended to "deauthorize" the original OGL, giving licensees just seven business days to decide whether to agree to the new terms or stop publishing OGL material (and it wasn't clear what the legal status of already published products would be).

At no point is there any evidence that WotC asked anyone anything. There was no negotiation. They weren't even upfront with the majority of people using the OGL, as the plan was to keep the new agreement secret from all but the largest creators until just one business week before the OGL would have been revoked, forcing licensees using the OGL to make a very difficult decision in an unfairly short period of time. We're talking about an ultimatum here, not a request.

In that light, your landlord and tenant hypothetical makes no sense, as there's a whole legal framework that exists to keep landlords from doing what WotC attempted to pull on its licensees. A landlord would of course be way out of line if they attempted to "ask" in that way and would almost certainly be sued.

A better example would be negotiated licensing agreements, like the ones Marvel signed with Sony and 20th Century Fox before being acquired by Disney. Those agreements allow those companies to make films on certain properties as long as they actually made and continued to make films within a certain timeframe. When Disney acquired Marvel, they couldn't just say, "Well, you made these licensing agreements with Marvel, but we just bought Marvel and we've decided to revoke those agreements, so now you only have seven business days to agree to these new licenses that our lawyers drew up without your knowledge or input and we're not even going to be clear about whether we expect you to take your already existing Spider-Man and X-Men movies off the market."
 

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mamba

Legend
If you, mamba, were personally caught in a contract that benefited the other party more than it did you, I would fully support your right to renegotiate as well.
that is nice, I have a somewhat different take on the scenario however.

First of all, I do not think that it is at all clear that WotC did not benefit significantly from the deal.

Second, legally they have no right whatsoever, all they have is being the 1B company taking on the 5-20M competition, knowing that while they have no case, they might be able to just bully their way through, due to the disparity in size.

As I said earlier, this was a short-sighted move on Hasbro's part, because I think the contract actually benefited them.
I agree, they were stupid for even trying, not sure why this would make it any better however

A company owns a property. That property is being used for free by other companies
based on terms the company willingly offered and benefited from

I think you might be conflating a personal attachment to a hobby or perhaps some sort of perceived harm to an individual with the way having a job in general works.
no, I am only looking at the legitimacy of the case (nonexistent), the parties involved (significant disparity in power) and the rationale for and consequences of their actions - and none of this looks good for Hasbro as far as I am concerned

So much for neutrality! What discussion amongst friends? This was a company which owned a property which they had been giving away for free to other companies.
willingly, intentionally, and with no way of revoking it, but the will to bully their way through it regardless

I used discussion among friends because that is what @TheSword made it sound like

I would consider telling someone that they are 'misrepresenting' something as a personal attack, yes. Let's just chalk this up to a poor choice of words on your part, and that you didn't actually mean what you said (I don't believe that you did mean that, honestly).
I meant they overstated their case and knew it, claim might have been the better choice
 

Art Waring

halozix.com
It was big - for a month and now it’s back to business as usual.

More importantly maintenance of the terms and their public validation by a more current management team was a big win for 3pp 5e and the fanbase that uses them. Now if only folks could look past their animus and see that.
I was a lot longer than a month, the leaks started in November.

What the hell does this bolded part even mean?

Maintenance of what terms? what are you even talking about here?

"Validation by a more current management" is about as obtuse as you can get. The current management put the 1.1 OGL into action, some of them are ex-microsoft employees (that hate open source gaming), they are still working with the company. Just what exactly is this public validation you are talking about?

As we continue this conversation, you are making less and less sense, and you have been repeating yourself now for over a year, while simultaneously apparently putting your head in the sand as to the real life effects these events have had on the entire industry. You are probably content to pointlessly argue until the end of time, doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, just as long as you get the final word, right?

At this point, you are just wasting my time, time I should be using to get my projects finished.

If this thread proves anything, it proves that there is a massive disconnect in the hobby between players (you), and artists/creators (me). The cognitive dissonance is staggering. Its enough to say that I have had enough of hearing that everything is back to business as usual.

I am handing this off to @mamba & @The Scythian as I don't have any more time to waste.

I leave you with one question, please feel free to discuss it amongst yourselves I guess:

Do you ever wonder why there aren't more publishers and artists on the forums? Maybe its because of one-sided conversations like this... Honestly I am seriously contemplating quitting the forums due to this. :(
 



I leave you with one question, please feel free to discuss it amongst yourselves I guess:

Do you ever wonder why there aren't more publishers and artists on the forums? Maybe its because of one-sided conversations like this... Honestly I am seriously contemplating quitting the forums due to this. :(
Are you sure that's true? Or is that something you threw out there, as an emotional off the cuff response, because you disagree with one side of what's being discussed in this thread?

Here's a question for you: do you think that there are ever more sides to an argument than your own? Is it possible that you are right, but maybe the side you are arguing against has valid points too? Is it possible to reach a consensus, or do you have to win at all costs? Is 'winning' even the point of a discussion?
 


mamba

Legend
Do you ever wonder why there aren't more publishers and artists on the forums?
my take is that there are more consumers than publishers, so the ratio will always be strongly in favor of the consumers

I hope no one gets bullied away here, you can always just block the worst offenders
 

Oofta

Legend
For full effect, Pinkerton agents, on bikes. With actual bikers too, to make it for real scary.
Great. Now I'm envisioning this showing up
images (23).jpg
 


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