D&D General D&D's Utter Dominance Is Good or Bad Because...

Jaeger · Mar 8, 2024

OB1 said:
As long as it's in the same genre, the problem will persist, but EVE online has successfully captured a big share of the MMORPG market by appealing to a completely different group with a different type of game. That's why I'm wondering why no one is seriously going after a Modern Superhero or Sci-Fi TTRPG system.

Vampire did that. But then they screwed it up.

I think that a large part of why no one does that now has to do with how the industry has changed.

In the 90's People in the hobby were more likely to give non D&D system games a shot. And the perennial number two RPG was not a D&D clone.

But today?

IMHO unless you are 5e D&D, the Clone, or have the RPG license for Conan, Star Wars, or Lord of the Rings; Nobody is able to just jump into the industry like they could 30+ years ago.

Even publishers of long established RPG IP’s from the 80’s-90’s like Vampire, Shadowrun, and Cyberpunk go to Kickstarter now.

Reynard said:
5E early on was performing typically well for D&D. it reclaimed the mantle from Pathfinder and it was selling pretty good, probably even better than expected, but it was not this monstrous success we see today. THAT was the result of elements well beyond WotC's control.

I agree that those elements were beyond Wotc's control.

But 5e D&D did manage not to get in their own way!

The best thing that the 5e designers did was to make the game with a much lower level of complexity than previous Wotc editions. They did it to ostensibly make the edition more appealing and accessible to a much wider range of players after the 4e debacle.

Turned out to be a good idea that...

Hussar said:
They tried experimental and got thoroughly spanked by the fandom who has very clearly spoken that they do not want DnD to be experimental.

This has nothing to do at all with who owns DnD.

Truth.

D&D players like their D&D the way that they like it. So whatever you do; Don't touch anything!
Yes, after ten years it is clear that some things could be improved. But they don't want you to ruin it by changing everything!
So you need to tread lightly, and make sure that it is exactly the same D&D as it was before; Only better...

Oofta · Mar 8, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
No, but it might be a little bit easier proportionately to find players; as it is, even people who prefer other games often get sucked into the 5e sphere because its at least something, and the larger amount that is around, the more its likely to happen.

(This isn't new, of course; to one degree or another its always been easier to find D&D games than anything else. But the bigger percentage of the hobby is D&D, the more true that'll be).

"Easier to find proportionately" doesn't equate to "Easier to find". Yes, a lot of people prefer playing D&D over other games, that doesn't mean that there would be more people playing other games if it was not for D&D. If there are other people around who want to play WoD or whatever other game you prefer, they're still out there. If they really prefer that game to D&D, I don't see why they wouldn't switch over. If they're already in a campaign and have allocated as much free time to it as they can afford, then it doesn't matter what system that campaign is using.

Zardnaar · Mar 8, 2024

Oofta said:
Gotcha. You don't care for 5E design so the design has nothing to do with it's success. Okely Dokely. I'll have to tell all the people I've played 5E with that we don't really enjoy playing the game.

It's design is definitely a factor along with time and place eg social media.

DEFCON 1 · Mar 8, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
Entirely fair. Its just that people should seriously understand why people who are not primarily focused on D&D (or those who actively avoid it) are liable to potentially roll their eyes at the idea that D&D's success is good for everybody; its a premise without any obvious support.

Heh... I don't mind people rolling their eyes here. I mean I roll my eyes at most of the posters here at one time or another all the time.

Rystefn · Mar 8, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
I wouldn't draw too much conclusion from that, however; DriveThru can also sell a lot to people who are going to only end up reading it and never play. I own massive numbers of RPG pdfs that I'll never get around to playing; the combination of often modest prices and space storage issues makes that much more practical with PDFs.

This is equally true of D&D. People don't talk about it a lot, but the simple fact is that huge numbers of ttRPG books literally never see play. The further you get from core "PHB" style books, the more true this becomes. The majority adventure module type books sold are never played, only read. (To be clear, I'm not saying that if someone published ten different adventures, six of them will never have anyone play them. I'm saying that if you sell a hundred copies of an adventure module, less than fifty of them will be played at a table.)

So every time someone points at the current surge of D&D book sales, this same argument can be leveled re: the number of actual players out there. They absolutely are selling a lot of them to people who are going to only ever read it and never play. But I'm going to hazard a guess that the number of people using them in play is best represented as a percentage, not a flat number. As in: more sales almost certainly mean more players, at least as a general rule.

Reynard · Mar 8, 2024

The opposite of the "rising tide lifts all boats" analogy isn't that there is no tide at all, it is that it ultimately only benefits the big boat.

I don't think that is true, though. I do think lots of new players of D&D will eventually mean some number of new gamers. Some people that try D&D will fall in love with RPGs, broadly. They will try out other games, and even design some.

But when D&D's dominance is this outsized, it generates a lot of noise and can drown out other games, both within community spaces and in stores.

Thomas Shey · Mar 8, 2024

Oofta said:
"Easier to find proportionately" doesn't equate to "Easier to find". Yes, a lot of people prefer playing D&D over other games, that doesn't mean that there would be more people playing other games if it was not for D&D. If there are other people around who want to play WoD or whatever other game you prefer, they're still out there. If they really prefer that game to D&D, I don't see why they wouldn't switch over. If they're already in a campaign and have allocated as much free time to it as they can afford, then it doesn't matter what system that campaign is using.

It absolutely means that D&D can end up drowning things in availability. If there are 50 D&D groups present in your area, and 5 groups playing other games, its going to be vastly easier to find one of those D&D groups. And once someone is in one, its going to be easier to stay in it than do the non-trivial effort to see if there's something they'd like better has an opening. And no, that's not going to be the same if there's 20 D&D and 5 others.

In other words, no, I don't buy your premise here.

Thomas Shey · Mar 8, 2024

Rystefn said:
This is equally true of D&D. People don't talk about it a lot, but the simple fact is that huge numbers of ttRPG books literally never see play. The further you get from core "PHB" style books, the more true this becomes. The majority adventure module type books sold are never played, only read. (To be clear, I'm not saying that if someone published ten different adventures, six of them will never have anyone play them. I'm saying that if you sell a hundred copies of an adventure module, less than fifty of them will be played at a table.)

So every time someone points at the current surge of D&D book sales, this same argument can be leveled re: the number of actual players out there. They absolutely are selling a lot of them to people who are going to only ever read it and never play. But I'm going to hazard a guess that the number of people using them in play is best represented as a percentage, not a flat number. As in: more sales almost certainly mean more players, at least as a general rule.

That's true to some extent, but all evidence I have is that WOTC has been very resistant to selling their core line in PDF form, and that means to buy and not use has a much higher overhead. That doesn't mean it still doesn't happen (I have a lot of ancient RPG books that show that) but I'd be perfectly willing to put a bet on the idea that more people are willing to take a flier on a PDF they don't expect to necessary use than a hardcover.

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
No, but it might be a little bit easier proportionately to find players; as it is, even people who prefer other games often get sucked into the 5e sphere because its at least something, and the larger amount that is around, the more its likely to happen.

(This isn't new, of course; to one degree or another it’s always been easier to find D&D games than anything else. But the bigger percentage of the hobby is D&D, the more true that'll be).

if d&d shrinks that doesn’t mean other games have larger player pools. Percentage is the wrong way to look at this.

Micah Sweet · Mar 8, 2024

Thomas Shey said:
That's true to some extent, but all evidence I have is that WOTC has been very resistant to selling their core line in PDF form, and that means to buy and not use has a much higher overhead. That doesn't mean it still doesn't happen (I have a lot of ancient RPG books that show that) but I'd be perfectly willing to put a bet on the idea that more people are willing to take a flier on a PDF they don't expect to necessary use than a hardcover.

I used to buy WotC 5e books whenever they came out. Most of them never got used in a game.

We can play dueling anecdotes all day.

D&D General D&D's Utter Dominance Is Good or Bad Because...

Jaeger

That someone better

Oofta

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

DEFCON 1

Legend

Rystefn

Explorer

Reynard

Legend

Thomas Shey

Legend

Thomas Shey

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

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