D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

Mind of tempest · Mar 9, 2024

Micah Sweet said:
Incorrect. You don't need to peg your prime stat to be effective.

no you kind of do.

Minigiant said:
Meaning your PC had no bonuses in 2e.

Meaning alll your PC's dice rolls were straight d20s and thus their success was a complete crapshoot.

the fact straight tens is a crapshoot is a problem as it makes minmaxing an inherent part of the game.
The necessity of build-crafting is the foe of just playing what you like.

Minigiant said:
The thug and spy aren't normal people.

They are elite who had special training (nobles, knights), had strong vetting (spies and cult leaders) , or undergone intense weeding process (thugs and veterans).

they should not be extraordinary either one of those is just a slightly tougher-than-average criminal used as a beat stick, and the other someone who does need above-average abilities but mostly in not giving themselves away.
neither should be elite foes.

Paul Farquhar · Mar 9, 2024

Scott Christian said:
To be truthful, I am not sure if it was in the PHB.

This was explicit in 1st edition (around 1 in 100,000 humans, or 1 in 10,000 other races, have adventuring classes), but was never spelled out in 5th.

Of course, it's there mechanically. Even with 3d6 rolled stats, the average adventurer is going to average 3 points higher stats than the average member of their species.

Levistus's_Leviathan · Mar 9, 2024

Micah Sweet said:
Incorrect. You don't need to peg your prime stat to be effective.

That’s all you have to say? A character can be decent starting with a 15 in their main stat (assuming point buy or standard array), but they’re definitely not as effective as someone with a 16/17. They have to wait 4 more levels to max out their primary stat. They miss 5% more, (which adds up a lot over time), and depending on the ability score, it can affect their survivability.

My point is still true. If the only part of the Elven identity that you think matters is a +2 to Dexterity, you are underestimating the thematic importance of their other mechanics. The +2 to Dexterity matters way more from a mechanical standpoint than it does a thematic one.

Minigiant · Mar 9, 2024

Mind of tempest said:
the fact straight tens is a crapshoot is a problem as it makes minmaxing an inherent part of the game.
The necessity of build-crafting is the foe of just playing what you like.

It's not just the straight 10s.
It's the straight 10s with boring racial features to make them "reliable" "humans with funny hats"

Natural genius specieses like gnomes and long lived species like elves don't get bonus Skills. Again. Why not?

They kinda fixed this by making tough dwarves have more HP aand tough orcs avoid death 1/day.
But if Mountain dwarves are the Strong dwarves and Hill Dwarves the Wise dwarves, they could have given Mountain Dwarves Powerful Build and Keen Senses.

Mind of tempest said:
they should not be extraordinary either one of those is just a slightly tougher-than-average criminal used as a beat stick, and the other someone who does need above-average abilities but mostly in not giving themselves away.
neither should be elite foes.

stat block redundancy

An actual regular street thug is a reskinned guard, cultist or commoner with swapped weapons.
Because they're not special.

Paul Farquhar · Mar 9, 2024

Minigiant said:
An actual regular street thug is a reskinned guard, cultist or commoner with swapped weapons.

This is explicit in the 5e DMG.

Micah Sweet · Mar 9, 2024

Mind of tempest said:
no you kind of do.

Yeah? You got anything at all to back that opinion up?

Micah Sweet · Mar 9, 2024

Levistus's_Leviathan said:
That’s all you have to say? A character can be decent starting with a 15 in their main stat (assuming point buy or standard array), but they’re definitely not as effective as someone with a 16/17. They have to wait 4 more levels to max out their primary stat. They miss 5% more, (which adds up a lot over time), and depending on the ability score, it can affect their survivability.

My point is still true. If the only part of the Elven identity that you think matters is a +2 to Dexterity, you are underestimating the thematic importance of their other mechanics. The +2 to Dexterity matters way more from a mechanical standpoint than it does a thematic one.

Your point is only true if the nonmaxed character is ineffective, and they aren't ineffective.

Minigiant · Mar 9, 2024

Micah Sweet said:
Your point is only true if the nonmaxed character is ineffective, and they aren't ineffective.

I think the point is "+2 Dex and Darkvision" is a terrible way to define an elf.

Tabaxi in Volos had "+2 Dex and Darkvision".

Are Elves cats?

Levistus's_Leviathan · Mar 9, 2024

Micah Sweet said:
Your point is only true if the nonmaxed character is ineffective, and they aren't ineffective.

I’ve had player characters die/survive because a difference in one damage. I’ve had monsters survive/die because a single hit missed them (one of them was a Vampire that managed to get away with an unconscious party member, another time the party defeated a fleeing mind flayer just before it’s turn because of a single hit).

A simple +2 makes a significant difference over the course of the campaign.

And even if this was wrong, you are still wrong for thinking that a minor increase in Dexterity is the sole defining characteristic/most significant of what separates Elves from other races thematically. Tons of races get bonuses to Dexterity. It was one of the most common abilities pre-Tasha’s for a race/subraces to increase. Trance, Fey Ancestry, and their long lifespan is more influential on the culture and personalities of Elves than the +2 to Dexterity. This is true even if you think I’m overstating the mechanical importance of maxing out your ability score.

Mind of tempest · Mar 9, 2024

Minigiant said:
I think the point is "+2 Dex and Darkvision" is a terrible way to define an elf.

Tabaxi in Volos had "+2 Dex and Darkvision".

Are Elves cats?

I have seen an argument for that.

Levistus's_Leviathan said:
I’ve had player characters die/survive because a difference in one damage. I’ve had monsters survive/die because a single hit missed them (one of them was a Vampire that managed to get away with an unconscious party member, another time the party defeated a fleeing mind flayer just before it’s turn because of a single hit).

A simple +2 makes a significant difference over the course of the campaign.

And even if this was wrong, you are still wrong for thinking that a minor increase in Dexterity is the sole defining characteristic/most significant of what separates Elves from other races thematically. Tons of races get bonuses to Dexterity. It was one of the most common abilities pre-Tasha’s for a race/subraces to increase. Trance, Fey Ancestry, and their long lifespan is more influential on the culture and personalities of Elves than the +2 to Dexterity. This is true even if you think I’m overstating the mechanical importance of maxing out your ability score.

it should be more than minor is the point we need a far better character budget so we can have less of these discussions

D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics

Paul Farquhar

Legend

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer

Minigiant

Legend

Paul Farquhar

Legend

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast

Minigiant

Legend

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics

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