D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Because WOTC gave them both strong mechanical aspects to match the flavor.

This thread only exist because WOTC didn't give sorcerer strong mechanical and flavor aspects becaause a percentage of fans demanded it to justify more wizard spells.

Hell the Arcane, Divine, and Primal spell lists, an aspect with strong flavor and mechanics, was also killed by wizard players.

Damn Wizard fanboys!

View attachment 354320
Don't forget is wizard fanboys fault that we got a half-baked/half-cooked sorcerer the first time around. Them complaining led to the designers wasting valuable playtest time on the fool's errand that was tue Mage uberclass.
 

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Yaarel

He Mage
Because WOTC gave them both strong mechanical aspects to match the flavor.
I agree, coherence between flavor and mechanics is key. And. The flavor has to be versatile to adapt to different player preferences. To design such is a challenge.


This thread only exist because WOTC didn't give sorcerer strong mechanical and flavor aspects becaause a percentage of fans demanded it to justify more wizard spells.
In 3e, the Sorcerer was the crack in vancian wall. Super important. Now in 5e this wall is gone. So is its crack. The 5e Sorcerer is without a purpose to exist.

Sorcerer mechanics < Wizard mechanics
Sorcerer innate magic < Psion innate magic
Sorcerer origin story ≈ Warlock origin story

The 5e Sorcerer is strictly redundant or inferior. The most deletable class ever.


Hell the Arcane, Divine, and Primal spell lists, an aspect with strong flavor and mechanics, was also killed by wizard players.


Damn Wizard fanboys!
The source spell lists were too big and clunky with too many spell flavors that were wrong for certain classes.

Wizard fans didnt care, because the Wizards were already using the complete "Arcane" spell list. It was the fans of other classes that were getting annoyed, such as all the tweaking that was necessary to make the Bard concept work.

What they should have done is reorganize the spell schools so that, mainly, only certain classes would access certain spell schools.

Now that would make many Wizard fans cry!
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I mean I really don't care about how it was. I don't care how some old edition did it or even what classes existed in them.


Which is weird. Because it is same fluff, innate arcane magic, so it should have the same rules. So the distinction was nonsensical even back then.
It's not the same fluff.

One is power by ancestor or accident.
The other is power by pact.

Those used to give you 2 different results but that would have cut into the page count for Wizards.
The source spell lists were too big and clunky with too many spell flavors that were wrong for certain classes.

Wizard fans didnt care, because the Wizards were already using the complete "Arcane" spell list. It was the fans of other classes that were getting annoyed, such as all the tweaking that was necessary to make the Bard concept work.

What they should have done is reorganize the spell schools so that, mainly, only certain classes would access certain spell schools.

Now that would make many Wizard fans cry!
Crawford said they got rid of it because Wizard fans only wanted all the spells and only wanted Wizards to have all the spells.

WOTC just would not give them a bunch of exclusive spells again.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
It's not the same fluff.

One is power by ancestor or accident.
The other is power by pact.
If the Sorcerer power comes from ones own body and instincts − then why is it the same thing as Wizard who needs to learn how to use special material ingredients and pay lots of money for some of these ingredients?

If the Warlock power is a "gift" from a powerful being, and the Warlock is "cheating" by casting spells without needing to study − then why is it the same thing as Wizard who needs to learn how to use special material ingredients and pay lots of money for some of these ingredients?


Crawford said they got rid of it because Wizard fans only wanted all the spells and only wanted Wizards to have all the spells.
I missed that.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
If the Sorcerer power comes from ones own body and instincts − then why is it the same thing as Wizard who needs to learn how to use special material ingredients and pay lots of money for some of these ingredients?
Because that would require Sorcerers taking up more space in the book in stuff the Wizard does not get.

If the Warlock power is a "gift" from a powerful being, and the Warlock is "cheating" by casting spells without needing to study − then why is it the same thing as Wizard who needs to learn how to use special material ingredients and pay lots of money for some of these ingredients?
Because that would require Sorcerers Warlocks taking up more space in the book in stuff the Wizard does not get.
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
But they aren't metaphysically distinct. Depending how you interpret warlocks, they're metaphysically either sorcerers (if they're permanently imbued with power by a magical being) or clerics (if they channel magic from a powerful being.)

I don't think we need separate class depending on whether you were imbued by fiendish energy by a pact made with an archfiend, or imbued with fiendish energy because your dad was an archfiend.
The thing is, for a warlock you've gained this power from an external source. I'd argue warlocks are more like clerics on that metaphysical level, even if their chassis are completely different. The thing is, Sorcerers don't gain their power from an external source. Their power is internal to them. It shouldn't be represented in the same way and shouldn't have been watered-down wizard back in 3E

Sure, it comes from similar places, it may be because you're the seventh son of a seventh son or your dad's a demon, but it should be expressed differently. A warlock with fiendish power is going to use fiendish spells they've been given, a sorcerer with fiendish power should be sprouting wings and downright stealing abilities and non-spell techniques from fiends because they have the blood of a fiend and that power is their birthright, not merely a wizard immitating it or a warlock getting a watered-down version passed to it. A warlock with a powerful wizard pact is just going to have spells, a sorcerer who's the seventh son of a seventh son should have a far deeper connection to magic than any warlock, even if its both of similar theme.

Basically I want the playtest sorcerer with a bit of Blue Mage from Final Fantasy and the "Make up your own spell" freecasting stuff
 

pawsplay

Hero
Originally, 3e only hinted that sorcery came from a bloodline, something 5e returned to. The basic concept is that a sorcerer has a "spark" of magic, whether that's a draconic blessing, fey blood, or exposure to wild magic.
A wizard has insight. They also have a kind of "spark" but it's more reliant on learning that luck or raw knack.
The warlock is a bit of both; the pact involves a kind of spell-learning, but they gain a "spark" that fuels their abilities. However, their abilities have been overtly different. The warlock tends to be more "eldritch," with blasts of raw energy, fey and fiend powers, and so forth, a lesser focus on standard spell magic. Their style is different; they have frequent, flamboyant uses of powers, whereas traditional spellcastering involves some expenditure of resources.
So, it's not a purely arbitrary distinction. Each has distinctions in aesthetics, themes, and mechanical abilities. The 3e sorcerer was the least departure, but still, you have an arcane spellcaster who doesn't really need high Intelligence and may or may not be interested in making magic items. That was pretty radical at the time, and also, in 3e, there were more "dead levels" for just about every class, so the emphasis was on style and progression rather than scads of unique abilities.
I kind of miss the "chaotic OR evil" requirement of warlocks, but like the LG paladin, it was a rule honored more in the breach than the observance. I miss the connection to "wild magic" and limitless, monster-like magic. I really wish the 5e warlock had been Intelligence based, both to make eccentric weirdos more viable, and to emphasize their expertise in pact magic and how they learned more abilities, they didn't simply receive them like a cleric through inspiration.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Yes, absolutely. The first thing I did on my warlock houserules was to allow agonising blast bonus to apply to any cantrip, but unfortunately eldritch blast is still obviously the best choice most of the time. It is just too good, there is no real choice and that's boring.
To make eldritch blast less of the only choice, I've considered having it scale like other cantrips rather than gaining additional attacks with it. Following that up with much as you've done with agonising blast but with all of the eldritch blast invocations applying to all cantrips.
 


Yaarel

He Mage
Hmm, combining the Warlock and Sorcerer is not the worst idea. Make them imbued with magic either by pact or blood, and you might have something there.
The "Sorcerer Bloodline" can simply be an invocation, chosen at level 1 or later. It casts all Warlock spells "innately" (without spell components) (which is mostly flavor).

Additionally, the Sorcerer Bloodline invocation might grant some bodily benefit depending on the Patron, such as natural armor, natural weapons, supernatural beauty with Persuasion/Charm advantage, horrifying appearance with Intimidation/Frighten advantage, or so on. Players choice. And player chooses some thematic alteration of appearance.
 

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