Faolyn
(she/her)
Not wanting to, sure, I can see--although I don't know why you wouldn't want to challenge and/or make things fun for all your players.
Level Up (A5E) Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?
Chaltab
Explorer
Since this was originally my thread: in my experience with multiple parties having aarakocra in them since 2018--one of them with two at a time--a flying speed has never been a problem for combat balance. Even in a Dark Sun game that takes place mostly outside, a healthy mixture of flying monsters and monsters with ranged abilities keeps that from being a problem.
It is true that some exploration challenges can be trivialized by flight, but I've found that at low levels, flyers are too fragile to survive significant falling damage. A healthy sense of self-preservation goes a long way towards reining that in. By the time they're durable enough to be doing risky or dangeorus things in the air, it's also around the time your spellcasters get Fly, so you'd have to consider that dimension when designing challenges anyway.
Edit: Also I don't actually have a problem with limiting sustained flight to a few rounds at a time at low levels, but the fact that the paragon gift doesn't eliminate it feels very underwhelming compared to others, such as elves having the option to eliminate range limits of their Darkvision or Planetouched getting immunity to a damage type.
It is true that some exploration challenges can be trivialized by flight, but I've found that at low levels, flyers are too fragile to survive significant falling damage. A healthy sense of self-preservation goes a long way towards reining that in. By the time they're durable enough to be doing risky or dangeorus things in the air, it's also around the time your spellcasters get Fly, so you'd have to consider that dimension when designing challenges anyway.
Edit: Also I don't actually have a problem with limiting sustained flight to a few rounds at a time at low levels, but the fact that the paragon gift doesn't eliminate it feels very underwhelming compared to others, such as elves having the option to eliminate range limits of their Darkvision or Planetouched getting immunity to a damage type.
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Thomas Shey
Legend
The more a game narrows my options as a GM, the less I'm going to like where it takes me. Its got nothing to do with imagination. There plenty of games I have no trouble with everybody and they're brother flying; they just aren't low end fantasy games.
Thomas Shey
Legend
This completely ignores the fact that PCs have more of a range of responses than any number of potential opponent group. There are games that are like that, but a routine fantasy game isn't it.
Thomas Shey
Legend
Or, you can just not have low level flight among PCs.
Thomas Shey
Legend
If I want open-ended character options with little or no constraints at all, I've got games like that. Routine fantasy games aren't it.
Faolyn
(she/her)
Only if you take the opponent stats directly out of the book without any changes whatsoever.
Micah and I have literally been talking about adding constraints to flying, like weight limits and flight ceilings. I don't know how you could see those and think we're talking about no constraints.
And what, exactly, is a "routine fantasy game"?
Thomas Shey
Legend
Has nothing to do with that. It'd be just as true if I was creating opponents from the ground up.
I'm gonna give you the best answer I can: I know it when I see it.
And it doesn't matter how much flight is constrained in other contexts; not all opponents I may want to use in a fantasy game are going to be fliers and/or ranged attackers, and that chance increases as the encounters take place outdoors. And no, hyper-mobile PCs don't make this better, they're just a different kind of problem child (and one at least as extreme as a lot of animals and the like are pretty mobile themselves so they'd have to exceed even those).
Like I said, there are games and campaign types where I don't care, because flight is intrinsically a minor benefit; when most of what you're fighting is going to be ranged attackers, it doesn't matter. That's not what I expect in a typical fantasy game, and I have no interest in being forced into it.
Well all of this came about because level up limits flight, and people were saying it shouldn’t because “flights not that strong”
I guess the designers disagreed.
W'rkncacnter
Hero
personally, i think non-magical flight at level 10+ is too harshly limited. i'd actually probably move the paragon flying mechanics (i.e. make a save to not take fatigue) to the base flying traits/gifts, and then make the paragon flight gifts just unlimited (or much less limited) flight. maybe i'll make that a house rule...
i mean, i don't think i've had a fight actually worth fighting at level 10 or higher that didn't have at least some enemy combatants that could deal with flying characters, and level 10 is twice the level you need to be to pick up fly (which is flight foran entire hour ten minutes). i think letting level 10+ characters just fly would be fine.
i mean, i don't think i've had a fight actually worth fighting at level 10 or higher that didn't have at least some enemy combatants that could deal with flying characters, and level 10 is twice the level you need to be to pick up fly (which is flight for
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