Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
There's nothing wrong with those concepts, but I don't see the value of replacing old concepts with them in D&D. Make a new class if you want casters to be different.
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D&D 5E How would YOU nerf the wizard? +
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Mecheon
Sacabambaspis
That's what the pop culture idea of what a wizard is, though. Its casting magic regularly, probably a beard, robes, and not being great at other weapons (except maybe sometimes a sword), moreso using a staff or wand. Crossbows and darts just, ain't it. People will clash against the idea if it doesn't match with what they think a wizard should be doing, and will reject the class or. See all the stuff done to make the Four Elements monk fit with what people want from that class, which is "I want Avatar the Last Airbender"
The wizard has to evolve with the way people play the game and what they expect from it, you can't keep it around acting like it did back in the day as a dead husk of the past completely divorced from the modern idea of what its called. Otherwise, just re-name the old wizard instead, and let an actual wizard, based around the popular perception of what that is, take its place.
Gammadoodler
Hero
I may not agree with some of the conclusions, but the post is littered with indications that it is their opinion/preference.
Gammadoodler
Hero
1. Effectiveness..you've set up a bit of a strawman here. There is a range of unpredictability/risk between zero and "equal chance to TPK as solve the problem at hand". Moreover, the other extreme, 100% chance to solve the problem at hand, seems equally unreasonable and unfun to me. It's just hard for me to see the appeal of the vending machine mage.
2. Zero to demigod.. I wouldn't have a problem with the zero to demigod progression if the other classes could keep up. To me, this is more an issue with the other classes than it is the wizard. Holding other classes constant. I think your approach is reasonable. I just wouldn't hold those things constant.
3. The Fantasy.. fully agree..insofar as it is reasonably balanced with other classes' capabilities. That said.. the current style casting doesn't feel very magical to me. It's less "harness the mysterious forces latent in the world around me" and more "My player presses the button, I get the magics."
The fact that you can have a negative INT modifier and still be just as effective (though markedly less flexible) is particularly damning, to me. Like, sure, they have trouble comprehending Dr. Seuss, but they can manifest unbreakable walls of diet gravity and cast their wishes upon the Universe..
4.(Stealthmode) Simplicity and Fun. This actually goes back to the question I posed to you. What do you need the Wizard class to do in order to be fun for you? Is it just "solve problems with 100% predictable magic, most of the time"
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Remathilis
Legend
1. So here is my example. In D&D, you use a spell slot and cast fireball. It does damage in an area guaranteed. Now, how much damage is complicated based on saving throw, resistance/immunity, evasion or other features, legendary resistance, etc. But the effect is consistent. Compare to something like DCC's system where you roll to see how effectively you cast the spell with a poor roll and do barely any effect to roll high and blow up your party. That fits DCC's style which is very yolo, but I don't find it fits D&D.
2. I must preface with the assumption of ceteris paribus. The question was how would you nerf the wizard, not how would you fix other classes to fix the imbalance. I do agree I'd rather buff classes than nerf, but I'm keeping in the spirit of the thread.
3. To me, the fantasy of the class is someone who can use magic as effectively as a fighter swings a sword. I don't want to shoot a crossbow, I want to shoot bolts of fire from my fingers. I want to create magic shields, float above the ground, and use complex magic to overcome obstacles.
4ish. I want to feel competent, not overpowered. Previously, magic users started out incompetent and ended overpowered. I want to adjust the range and scope of spells rather than overhaul the whole of magic, and I'm willing to sacrifice things like wish to keep the wizard's power line in check.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
See, with a few specific exceptions (and for me wish is not one of them), I don’t actually think the effects of spells in D&D are OP. I think the mechanics for how spellcasters access and cast spells are OP. This is why I think we should re-learn the lessons of the past and reign in ubiquitous practical magic, or at least allow for other schools of thought in the game.
Gammadoodler
Hero
1. I get that why you object to the example case. I don't think anyone has proposed something that extreme though, and I think there is quite a bit of ground between that example and current 5e D&D.
2. More or less fair. I'm not sure the OP excludes adjustments to the other classes, but I see where you are coming from.
3. This is an interesting comparison..the fighter can't use their sword to float above the ground or solve complex obstacles. Separately, the target you're going for..the fighter's relationship with their sword, is mundane, no?
4. I think desiring a balanced class is great. What I was more curious about was the scope of the problems you think they need to be able to solve to still be fun. Like..what does competence look like to you?
Remathilis
Legend
1. I agree, but there have been calls to make magic dangerous and unpredictable, which is what I object to.
3. The comparison is mostly to mean that the fighters fantasy is cutting down enemies with weapons and armor. (Actual results may vary). They aren't required to spend a large amount of their time doing non-fightery things to enjoy the rush doing fightery things a few times per day. The wizard should have a mix of at will magic (cantrips and rituals) and bigger effects (spells) and I think the 5e wizard does a good job with this, but I would like to see some of the power budget moved from spells to give the wizard class more interesting class abilities as well.
4. So I'd like to see the following general changes.
A. Damage magic should be balanced better to make it a better choice. That includes upping weak attacks and nerfing op ones. It should also have more options for different energy types to allow for ice mages or storm mages.
B. Save or suck should be less coin flip. I would like more spells like slow (which debuffs a foe) than hold person (which ends a fight). 5e made some strides in this, but a lot more can be done.
C. I'd like to see obstacle or problem solving magic be less of a I Win button. That includes spells that straight up make certain skills redundant (knock) and spells that avoid hazards (fly) less powerful. Give non casters a far better reason to do something other than "it saves a spell slot".
D. I think high level magic needs a straight rework because it ramps up far too quickly. Especially effects like scrying, teleporting, summoning, and planar magic. The demigod stuff. I'd like to see some of the 5th+ level effects moved to higher levels and some of those really high effects become "NPC magic" or epic level things. (Gate or wish being prime example).
E. I'd like to compensate for the general weakening of spell effects by giving them more uses of lesser effects per day. More low level spells slots or more magical class abilities.
In short, id like to expand the sweet spot by making low levels suck less and high level less op. It was a noble goal of 4e and while I don't agree with its execution, I like the intent.
Drastically nerfed their spell casting damage ability.
That's it. That's the whole thing. Make fireball deal a lot less damage, do similar with other spells. Leave the rest intact.
That's it. That's the whole thing. Make fireball deal a lot less damage, do similar with other spells. Leave the rest intact.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Every mechanical change does.
