"The term 'GNS' is moronic and annoying" – well this should be an interesting interview

Thomas Shey · May 11, 2024

AbdulAlhazred said:
Looking at it from here, this game was an utter disaster. So much so that the authors' response was "well, system doesn't matter, just ignore all the rules!" Of course Edwards panned it, what good is there to say of such a system? People may have had a great time playing V:tM, I'm sure many did, but it wasn't because of anything in the game itself.

I don't think that's true. Its just the system was good for a different kind of game about vampires than the designers seemed to want. It had problems, but it worked well enough for some kinds of action/horror/urban fantasy campaigns as long as you stayed in the bin.

Old Fezziwig · May 11, 2024

Emberashh said:
There's better ways to communicate disagreement than trying to position something as lesser than it is.

Personally, I'm skeptical that games are art (though willing to be convinced they are), but I think the reverse of your point is true, too — games don't have to be a type of art to be valuable to society.

Emberashh · May 11, 2024

Old Fezziwig said:
Personally, I'm skeptical that games are art (though willing to be convinced they are), but I think the reverse of your point is true, too — games don't have to be a type of art to be valuable to society.

Whether or not games are valuable to society was never the question. Like, at all.

That has nothing to do with what is or isn't art.

Old Fezziwig · May 11, 2024

Emberashh said:
Whether or not games are valuable to society was never the question. Like, at all.

That has nothing to do with what is or isn't art.

I read your point as suggesting games are not art is lessening games somehow. If it's not in terms of value to society, then how are we diminishing them? If games are not art, how are they diminished? Like, what's our criteria here?

loverdrive · May 11, 2024

Pedantic said:
Yeah, this is the fundamentally frustrating bit. There's been excellent design progress towards one or two very specific goals... And then it gets treated as a mandate to pursue those goals, because they produced innovation the one time, instead of an object lesson in doing good design for your goals.

To be fair, "you are constantly pressured and always are just a step away from a disaster" is pretty broadly applicable.

Emberashh · May 11, 2024

Old Fezziwig said:
I read your point as suggesting games are not art is lessening games somehow. If it's not in terms of value to society, then how are we diminishing them? If games are not art, how are they diminished? Like, what's our criteria here?

I was referring to the book being dismissed.

niklinna · May 11, 2024

This talk from GDC seems relevant to some aspects of the discussion. It's about video games, but the general idea of the cursed problem seems to be similar to incompatible agendas/purposes of play.

Emberashh · May 12, 2024

niklinna said:
This talk from GDC seems relevant to some aspects of the discussion. It's about video games, but the general idea of the cursed problem seems to be similar to incompatible agendas/purposes of play.

There are no cursed problems, just unimaginative (and often stubborn) design.

This is a better talk to take to.

zakael19 · May 12, 2024

If you cared to watch the video, you'd see how he actually walked through the fact you can't simply "solve" a cursed problem, because if you could it wouldn't be cursed per his definitions. Instead you wind up sacrificing something in either player or design objectives to solve it (or you don't solve it). It's actually a very interesting talk.

Emberashh · May 12, 2024

zakael19 said:
If you cared to watch the video,

I've watch GDC everytime they drop a new video. I've seen this one multiple times.

My assessment isn't based on reading the cover and its incredibly uncharitable to immediately assume I didn't even watch it.

zakael19 said:
because if you could it wouldn't be cursed per his definitions.

Exactly.

"The term 'GNS' is moronic and annoying" – well this should be an interesting interview

Thomas Shey

Legend

Old Fezziwig

a man builds a city with banks and cathedrals

Emberashh

Hero

Old Fezziwig

a man builds a city with banks and cathedrals

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)

Emberashh

Hero

niklinna

satisfied?

Emberashh

Hero

zakael19

Adventurer

Emberashh

Hero

Similar Threads