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I see the tables and save system key to the "old AD&D feeling/experiance", D20 just doesn't mesh with Old School IMO. Gideon, your arguements continue to be completely wacked.

GT: "Otherwise C&C would not have been possible to invent. ^_~`" GT, this statement is idiotic... ;) What the hell does house ruling AD&D or 3E have to do with the Trolls making a game! :confused: Also, if you think the creators of 3E intended for "house ruling" out skills and feats, or...

Exactly right. d20 light does the same thing as C&C (both can be used as a spring board for 3E light, niether one is a good substitute for 1Es table based system if your going in that direction).

Dris, you chopped my paragraph and it makes it sound as if I'm saying C&C is not a complete system "as is", what I said was this: "OD&D is a complete and destinct game, the number of rules you have (ie. not covering every situation) has nothing to do with that (as I'm sure you know, there is...

I was never one to buy into the concept that AD&D or OD&D was incomplete, certainly not "broken" or having to be improved threw house rules, as you pointed out these variations between DMs were minimal (more a reflection of the ownership aspect of the DMs world then anything else), infact, so...

Drag - "Wishy washy and unfocused? I'm not sure I get that." As much as I dislike 3E it is a very well developed game, its complete. AD&D also feels very complete, and has a strong identity (great flavor, many rules systems etc.). C&C (with few rules (very D20 thus not destinct), advice to...

3E's idiotic skills feats and class attachments to monsters was one of the worst things 3Es designers came up with . Its nice that C&C didn't follow 3E in this regard, but neither did alot of other games (also NOT "old school) so it takes more then that to qualify, but your point is well taken...

I don't think most people include the bulk of 2E as "old school" though some modules etc. that would fit into that def. did slip in (esp. if you skipped the crap and went to the dungeon.

If "old school" refers to 1E and earlier (and it does) then yes, a game that was advertised to be a return to old school should have something in common with 1E or OD&D. Remember, Gygax didn't write all that material, yet those authors (with their own styles) of earlier modules and books...

I agree with that completely, it is all a matter of taste, and more power to those who prefer 3E or C&C or whatever to AD&D or any other game ;) . I just don't like to see the "old school" label placed upon it (when its anything but). 3E is modern D20 in rules, artwork, text, layout, you name...

Dristram, I agree, C&C is a pretty good re-interpretation of 3E (actually making the skills system work) but I get zero "old-school" feel from it (in rules, artwork, layout, etc. its very D20). In an evolutionary perspective, I see C&C growing out of 3E rather then 1E; its certainly not the...

Sure, for those things which would be realistically consistant to a PC there is standardization (combat, saves vs. magic, poison), but thats about it. Everything else was variable in AD&D, for instance what do you role to get past your typical trap or jump across a wide pit? (though each DM...

The problem is the only presented option (the default) is SIEGE, unless you've played AD&D and DMed it you'd never know to do anything different. Thats not going to give anyone coming from 3E an old school feeling game (but then I don't think that was the Trolls objective).

The "final target number" is not enough of a mystery in 3E or C&C to keep the player from hedging his bets (it quickly becomes a question of "is this more or less difficult than the typical stuck door, trap, rope to climb etc.). In AD&D one pit trap might be crossed by rolling Dex (3d6) the...

True, the difference though is with 1E the player doesn't know his chances or the rules related to saves, the DM is left (per absense of rules) to figure it out using common sense. Fewer rules (or better yet lots of rules options and ideas) make for a more unpredictable and exciting experiance...

The same is true in 3E. Dris wrote -And the players don't automatically know their chances of success because the Challenge Level (CL) is determined by the CK or other factors unknown to the players.- This is also the arguement made by those who defend 3Es skill system

No, 3E is video-gamey because it has the player role a known factor (that progresses) for every action they want to take (bluff, dodge, jump, tumble, climb etc.) a push button arcade feel. In AD&D it felt like you were actually doing it. You didn't know your chances (often the DM roled dice...

I said: -As for Gygax and his association with C&C, my understanding is that he is payed for his association, and in return the Troll Lords get the benefit of his name associated with their product.- Gygax is paid by TLG, that is a fact. Would he support C&C on its own merits? I have no...

Phil, C&Cs artwork is far more similar to 3E then 1E (or classic fantasy of that era), its still got all the modern 3E elements I hate. And this should be no surprise, as 3E players are likely their primary market, thus going after a toned down D20 look in art was a logical option (which also...

"Modern classic" is the problem. This is a fantasy game set in a sword and sorcery period, not the local tatoo shop or thespian guild, modern elements only pull you out of that setting (btw 3E was just as bad). C&C's artists are skilled enough to have painted or drawn classic images (the kind...