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First of all...you can't seriously claim that Andrea Dworkin didn't argue from the point of view that sex was evil, at least, heterosexual, penetrative intercourse. She wrote an entire book arguing that heterosexual intercourse was inherently coercive, invasive, and demeaning towards women...

If Cedric is engaging in these behaviors without using reliable protection (I don't hold that it has to be perfect, because perfect isn't achievable in any area of life, but it should be reasonably reliable), be it magic or mundane, then at the very least he's acting dishonorably, for all the...

Okay, if sex has a special moral character, then WHY does it have a special moral character? I have only heard two real arguments, on opposite ends of the spectrum. 1: sex is evil. You can have a wide variety of justifications for this, ranging from unprovable religious dogma, to more modern...

The paladin's code says nothing about celibacy or not paying for sex, the only thing that's at all open-ended in the code is the "and so on" in the rule that the paladin must act honorably, and unless you believe that in all circumstances, patronizing a prostitute is inherently dishonorable...

I honestly have no idea, that's a question of the individual campaign and Shilsen never told us all that much about the setting in his fiction. But my point about high class vs menial is that in prostitution...let's face it, realistically, the hotter girls get the better pay and thus have to...

I think they are writing with the assumption that players will be working on the baseline that modern American law and sensibilities represents "lawful good", because that's the values of the majority of their audience, and in most states, prostitution is illegal and held as a bad thing. But in...

Sepulchrave, in response to your arguments, first that Cedric's situation is implausible...not necessarily. Shilsen uses a later piece of fiction to explain it, basically Cedric and Catherine, a former prostitute who got out, set up this brothel as a kind of halfway house to transition girls...

The paladin would not take a slave who voluntarily sold himself? What about the vow of obedience feat? A paladin would not take on an underling who had sworn a sacred and holy vow to serve him because it's immoral? Granted, money doesn't change hands, but it's still a form of voluntarily...

I'm sorry, but the argument that trade is inherently coercive does not hold up. Just google the word coercive. I've looked on wikipedia, on every online dictionary I can find, all of them define coercion the same way, the use of force, intimidation, or some form of undue psychological pressure...

"trade is coercive"... so, a paladin is allowed to put a sword to someone's throat and force them to do whatever the paladin says, so long as it isn't sexual? I recognize you're not actually TRYING to say that, but if you say that coercion is fine as long as it doesn't apply to sex, you are...

Actually, the book of exalted deeds basically says that sex is just a normal healthy activity and vows of chastity have nothing to do with it having a special moral character. most of that is towards saying that D&D does not regard sex as evil, but neither do they say anything about sex being...

Narse, by that logic (defining all prostitution as inherently coercive) you go right back into discussions that came up much earlier in the thread that essentially amount to "why is sex a moral special snowflake that functions by different rules than everything else?", because by that logic, ANY...

Context context context my friend! The book makes a generalization here, listing prostitution as a coercive and exploitative relationship, and therefore evil. it's listed as an example under a category, if it no longer fits in the category, would it still be a valid example? of course...

Note the language used in describing the prostitution they're talking about, terms like "exploitative or coercive relationships", "without the power to enter freely and willingly", this is the context that describes their mention of prostitution on that list of evil sexual behaviors, it is evil...

For all of the people objecting to Cedric because he drinks, wenches, and speaks crudely.... Would we even be having this conversation if Shilsen had created him as a dwarf instead of a human?

It seems important to me to point out that for paladins, druids, clerics, and really any class subject to an alignment limitation or a behavioral code, these restrictions exist not only to try to enforce a class archetype for role playing purposes, but as mechanical limitations, often meant to...

Okay, Pemerton, I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. Did you just describe a very interesting piece of fiction that would be enjoyable to role play out? absolutely. Did you discuss any game mechanics? ....No. See, that's what makes D&D, and the whole genre of tabletop/play by...

I honestly believe Pemerton that "it is possible for the players to be wrong" is one of the few baseline elements of an RPG that is actually REQUIRED for it to qualify as a game. From Wikipedia's definition of a game: "Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction."...

Yeah! This Raise cost me 5000gp in diamonds, it BETTER be gratifying somebody! :p Even with mature, skilled role players, I still believe D&D is built around the model of the DM as referee. How tightly or loosely they should hold the reins depends very much on the group, but letting the...

But then how do you explain that they continue to get class abilities and spells, ostensibly FROM Heironeous? It just seems to me like the format of D&D has to be bent quite a lot if one wishes to insert the assumption of "the players can never be provably wrong about how the universe works"...