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100% this. People don’t design warlords for 5e as it currently exists. They design warlords for 5e as the wish 5e existed. You can clearly see this when the justifications for overturned warlords are that the rest of the martial classes are undertuned. Or when people propose warlord abilities...

I’m a reformed monster. Until about a week ago mine was set to 10 posts per page.

I agree the fighter chassis is a bad basis. Yet, anytime I’ve seen anyone produce a balanced warlord it gets shouted down by warlord fans. Then they point to obviously overturned warlords and say they are balanced. The takeaway is that the power budget to produce fan approved warlord is...

From where I sit most 4e warlord fans won’t be satisfied unless they have a very overturned warlord class. One that does the damage of the fighter by attacking with their allies, healing of the cleric, while also buffing allies attacks/damage initiative and giving them battlefield movement.

Sure. I’m just saying that’s the too much spot.

when the game gets in the way of having some good story.

Thus why i said all ‘the leader healing features’ and not powers.

No. 3x per short rest. At level 1 clerics are typically regarded as the strongest class. Maybe it will be balanced in 2024 but it’s not currently so. It doesn’t though. Start with this premise, warlord shouldnt be capable of healong more than a life cleric. Sounds reasonable, no?

Most overtuned classes don’t screw up the tables balance depending on exactly what is meant by that. Doesn’t mean those same things aren’t overtuned. Anything that’s A force multiplier is overtuned. It means adding the force multiplier in will be better than adding in a non-force multiplier.

That was the case with all the leader healing features in 4e.

Apologies. The point is playtesting won’t tell you it’s overturned if you are just testing if people like it. People always like the overturned things.

I’d suggest it’s more likely that your ‘playtest’ was something like ‘yay warlord😍’ and this warlord feels great’ without realizing that’s because it’s highly overturned (at least at low levels). The numbers don’t lie. Guy heals more than a life cleric with channel divinities and all spell...

one just needs to look at the level 1-3 abilities to see that isn’t the case. Now it may be balanced enough for you, but it is obviously stronger than most if not all fighter class+subclasses at those levels. Does it even on out later? I doubt it but when seeing how out of tune it was early I...

What happens is that when power level has to get reigned in the things everyone wants the warlord to do has to start being cut and different people want to keep different aspects and focuses.

Yes really. At level 1 you get the equivalent to 3x healing words per short rest. Along with good armor and weapon proficiencies. (Up to heavy armor if desired).

Seems kind of OP at least at lower levels. Which really seems par for course. Warlord fans want to be able to cause the damage of a barbarian/fighter/ranger/paladin while healing like a cleric, while having high cha and/or int for skills, while buffing party initiative, attacks rolls and...

I’m confused. Earlier in the thread when I tried to speak of narrativism without mentioning game mechanics I got tremendous pushback that we couldn’t talk about it without the mechanics. Now it sounds not just like ‘we can’ but like ‘that’s the only way we can talk about it.’

I see. Thought big model was a reference to gns.

Still catching up a bit, is the suggestion here that simulationsim isnt a valid goal of llay?

Been traveling so a bit behind on the thread but this seems easy enough to comment on. if GNS is about goals of play and the N describes play with the goal of narrativist play, then it seems contradictory to assert that: ‘it is a general model of the structure and process of RPG play in any...