Which Campaign Setting has the best fluff? Why?

Kanegrundar said:
And so what? Eberron is selling well, so this must be what players wanted in a setting? Most people that play RPG's are do so to simply have fun. Does going into all the societal factors caused by lightning rail trains add to that fun? I would seriously doubt it.

For those of us who do consider such things fun (which I am very much*), there are other games and settings that cater to us. Transhuman Space, Blue Planet and Aria all go for indepth looks at society and what makes it tick and react.

*Just because I find the same things enjoyable as Nisarg, does not mean I try to ram the idea on to others.

I already said that Oathbound is my favorite setting fluff wise, so here are some other runner ups:

For non-d20, Mechanical Dream and Collectors: The Burning House are a tie. The latter is Fudge based and the PCs are demons who collect souls that have already been sold (killing people is a bad thing). It is written very well and should give goosebumps to most readers.

For d20, Iron Kingdoms. I don't like the world, but the writing does bring the world alive.
 

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I didn't mean to gloss over the gamer population that does enjoy the type of games that Nisarg likes. I hate it when I fall into the trap over-generalization!

Kane
 

The most bizarre part of Nisarg's anti-Eberron stance to me is that he's basically calling a good part of human history 'unrealistic.'

Russia was a feudal state in the 1800s and remained an absolute monarchy into the 20th century, when societal pressures mostly caused by WW1 triggered a pair of successful revolutions. Much of Europe and Asia maintained hereditary governments that actively involved their nobility into the 20th century, until those governments were forcibly dismantled by foreign powers.

Eberron's "unrealistic" society looks a lot like what Europe probably would have in 1925 if the US hadn't entered WW1. Weakened but still in-control monarchies and constitutional monarchies, powerful corporations (Dragonmarked houses) and a devastated population unsure of how to go forward.

And robots. ;)

The actual Last War itself seems highly unrealistic, particularly in light of the multitude of potentially or actually hostile superpowers breathing down Khorvaire's collective neck, but I don't see why the sociology of the setting is so unrealistic.
 

Lost Empires

well I loved birthright the best, but as to what I use now is my own campaign world, Lost Empires. Its kinds like tolkien or greyhawk settings with a rich culture and history, and its very, very large, 3x the size f the realms, and yes its all detailed. It took many years too.
Thesres some unique races like the Aberra, which are like wolf men, Beargoblins and many more. There are other types of Elves like the cruel Evalians and Milandrians who are fond of torturing the dwarves and humans, and a few are assasins that are on blood trails to kill the 1/2 elves that stain their families bloodline. Its a fun world, Its played host to lots of people on and offline and who knows maybe Ill put it back up for free on the net if people are interested in it.
Its not very high magic, the goda are a big part of the world and it has 3 different times to play in, the conquest of the Djinn, the War of the 2 moons, and the present day. Like I said nothing new but its mine.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
The most bizarre part of Nisarg's anti-Eberron stance to me is that he's basically calling a good part of human history 'unrealistic.'

Russia was a feudal state in the 1800s and remained an absolute monarchy into the 20th century, when societal pressures mostly caused by WW1 triggered a pair of successful revolutions.

You don't have to wait so late to see social pressures. The very beginning of industrialization led to massive social, cultural and political changes. The way people viewed things as basic as work, land, the family, education, god, progress, etc etc. all changed massively with the advent of the industrial age.

You have intentionally chosen the most backward country in Europe as your historical "example", and badly given that it was a country that was also in the throws of most of the above since the beginning of the industrial revolution (at least the beginning of industrialization in Russia), it just took a long while to dump absolutist monarchism along with a few other things (it was the last country in Europe to get rid of serfs, too). None of which means it was a society that wasn't going through massive turmoil before those events.

Eberron's "unrealistic" society looks a lot like what Europe probably would have in 1925 if the US hadn't entered WW1. Weakened but still in-control monarchies and constitutional monarchies, powerful corporations (Dragonmarked houses) and a devastated population unsure of how to go forward.

You are grossly overestimating the importance of the United States in the progress and aftermath of the 1st World War.

But anyways, the dragonmarked houses do not seem like 20th century corporations, they seem far more like trading houses of early renaissance italy.

And none of this explains why people are still going around with plate mail and longswords, and dressing and acting like medieval peasants in a world with railroads.

Nisarg
 

Nisarg said:
You don't have to wait so late to see social pressures. The very beginning of industrialization led to massive social, cultural and political changes. The way people viewed things as basic as work, land, the family, education, god, progress, etc etc. all changed massively with the advent of the industrial age.

Certainly. All of those things changed. Eberron displays a fair amount of change in those regards as well, though it perhaps wrongly attributes them more to the devastation of the Last War than to its magical industrialization. I'd also say that the technological industrial revolution was much more widespread than the magical one Eberron postulates - as Staffan noted, the lightning rail is at present open only to the wealthy or those they sponsor.

Besides, the people of Eberron don't act terribly 'medieval' on a cultural level.

Nisarg said:
You have intentionally chosen the most backward country in Europe as your historical "example", and badly given that it was a country that was also in the throws of most of the above since the beginning of the industrial revolution (at least the beginning of industrialization in Russia), it just took a long while to dump absolutist monarchism along with a few other things (it was the last country in Europe to get rid of serfs, too). None of which means it was a society that wasn't going through massive turmoil before those events.

It was indeed going through massive turmoil, but, like its immediate western neighbors and Britain, it seemed to be on the process of self-correcting into a stable constitutional monarchy prior to the outbreak of World War I.

Nisarg said:
You are grossly overestimating the importance of the United States in the progress and aftermath of the 1st World War.

Do you think France, Britain and the rapidly spiralling Russia (and their smaller allies) would have defeated Germany and Austria? It seems to me that the germanic states were grinding down their western foes and taking advantage of internal dissent in Russia to achieve complete military victory.

Considering that the governments of Germany and especially Austria were monarchial and that they were forcibly dissassembled by foreign powers after they lost the war, I'd say that the US (the factor that turned the tide of said war) was a rather significant factor in the dissolution of monarchy. ;)

Nisarg said:
But anyways, the dragonmarked houses do not seem like 20th century corporations, they seem far more like trading houses of early renaissance italy.

They remain nonetheless extragovernmental bodies with international reach and great economic power. Their organization is strongly driven by magical effects (the dragonmarks themselves). Their economic influence and political independence across national lines are hallmarks not just of 20th century corporations but of cyberpunk visions of 21st century corporations.

Nisarg said:
And none of this explains why people are still going around with plate mail and longswords, and dressing and acting like medieval peasants in a world with railroads.

People go around with plate mail and longswords as long as those are the best available armaments at a reasonable price.

Wands require special training and don't offer huge benefits, to say nothing of their expense. To wield a wand of magic missile (1d4+1 damage), a soldier has to take a level in either a PC class, Adept or Magewright. By contrast, if he has a Strength of 14, he can do 2d6+3 with a greatsword and his meager Warrior level. On the other hand, a d20 MODERN rifle typically does 2d6 damage and requires Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), which a Warrior can get at first level. Thanks to its range and not requiring a good Strength, it's a better weapon than the greatsword - just like its real-life equivalent, and for the same reason. The wand of magic missile probably isn't as good.

For the same price as a wand, you can get a +1 sword that's significantly more useful to a typical soldier.

Eberron experienced a magical industrial revolution, but it doesn't exactly mimic Earth's industrial revolution. At a purely material level, its effects are quite different because what it did for Khorvaire is quite different from what the industrial revolution did for Europe.

Ignore the absence of a distinct and purely socio-political movement toward egalatarianism, one which both predates the Earthly industrial revolution and came to prominence in a country initially more agrarian than not - even though that absence in and of itself explains why economic determinism wouldn't drive Eberron from monarchies.

Rather than producing cheap, plentiful necessities, Eberron's industrial revolution produced less expensive, more common luxuries. It didn't produce items that were strictly better than those that came before; it reduced the very best items from before to an affordable level.

A wand of magic missile is still a luxury item. In Earthly terms, its more equivalent in cost to a small piece of field artillery than a repeater rifle - but it offers significantly less power than a repeater rifle. On a massed battlefield, the fact that the wand won't miss at least once in twenty shots on average may be worthwhile, but an adventurer is still better off with a sword.

Likewise, Eberron simply doesn't possess the advanced agriculture needed to abandon feudalism. The city of Sharn, wonky demographics aside, could not support itself entirely on create food and water spells; the agricultural base of Breland supports Sharn, just as the (non-industrialized) agricultural base of Russia supported Moscow and St. Petersburg - and could not support them during WW1. People live like peasants in Khorvaire because Khorvaire's industrial revolution hasn't eliminated the need for massed agriculture.
 

Doug McCrae said:
Glorantha. In terms of richness, imagination and the cultural knowledge possessed by the creators it leads the field.

Maybe Tekumel can rival Glorantha but I'm not that familiar with it.

My thoughts exactly.

Glorantha and Tekumel are tied for first, though I'd probably give Tekumel the edge.

For cohesiveness, uniqueness, and cultural depth, these are in a league of their own.

Once these two creations have washed over you, everything else looks like it was written by a bunch of middle-schoolers at recess.

Carl
 

Nisarg said:
Yes, and yet everyone is still living, looking and acting medieval. It would be like if in the real world the railroad was invented and everyone was still running around in platemail, living in fiefdoms, working a serf-based economy and practicing catholicism.

You're from Latin America, aren't you? It could explain your rather unreliable mental picture of what medieval Europe was, and how people were living, looking, and acting at this time.

If anything, Eberron looks (for technology and fashion) more like Renaissance than like Middle Age.

Socially, the society looks more like 19th century.

Serf-based economy? When the economy is controlled by international corporations (the Dragonmarked Houses) and finciancial pressure groups (the Aurum, the Sixty) ?

Acting medieval? When you have emancipation philosophies (goblins, warforged, etc., can no longer be considered property) and a Bill of Right (Galifar's code) ?

Your points are all simply ridiculous. But still, you keep on hammering they're irrefutable and irrefuted. Everytimes someone shows you you're wrong, you play deaf. Deaf, and dumb. Definitely dumb.

It's not because of your "defence of the principle of fun uber alles in rpgs" that you have been banned from forums. It's because you're, simply put, obnoxious. I'm not sure whether it's just because you're a troll and having fun in trying to rile people up, because you have no social skills, or because you are terribly bad at debating and with hypertrophied opinions. But whatever the cause, you are obnoxious.
 

MoogleEmpMog said:
Do you think France, Britain and the rapidly spiralling Russia (and their smaller allies) would have defeated Germany and Austria? It seems to me that the germanic states were grinding down their western foes and taking advantage of internal dissent in Russia to achieve complete military victory.

I think they would. Germany and Austria had a good start, but in the end, things were looking grim for them. Their progress in the west were stalled by the Trench War, and it was France, not Germany, that developped the first tanks.

butler5.jpg


They were so effective that Germany made sure, in the 39-45 war, to have this time the upper technological hand.

MoogleEmpMog said:
Eberron experienced a magical industrial revolution, but it doesn't exactly mimic Earth's industrial revolution. At a purely material level, its effects are quite different because what it did for Khorvaire is quite different from what the industrial revolution did for Europe.

To the contrary, one of the big difference between the real world and Eberron is that Eberron did not experience an industrial revolution, magical or not.

Magic has always existed in Eberron. There have been no sudden magical breakthrough comparable to the invention of steam engines. The only magical revolution Khorvaire underwent was the apparition of dragonmarks, and the funky stuff they allowed. It was not a revolution, but a slow evolution, one that shaped the Dragonmarked houses as the powerful financial and economical forces they are. It was not a sudden invention of telephone and electric light -- not a sudden change. Not a revolution.
 

Gez said:
You're from Latin America, aren't you? It could explain your rather unreliable mental picture of what medieval Europe was, and how people were living, looking, and acting at this time.

It's not because of your "defence of the principle of fun uber alles in rpgs" that you have been banned from forums. It's because you're, simply put, obnoxious. I'm not sure whether it's just because you're a troll and having fun in trying to rile people up, because you have no social skills, or because you are terribly bad at debating and with hypertrophied opinions. But whatever the cause, you are obnoxious.

Really? Wait.. you just engage in a racist slur against me, and yet I'm the obnoxious one?

First, I'm not "from latin america"; I live in it. I'm canadian (though my mother was latinamerican), currently living in Uruguay. Secondly, your assertion that by virtue of being latinamerican someone would have an "unreliable mental picture" of anything is fantastically insulting.

I've reported you, which is something I don't often do to people who attack me. But when you attack my race or nationality (and get it wrong to boot), that's just vile.

Nisarg
 

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