Does Polymorph restrict size-changes?

As a sidenote, how would you handle the HD in Polymorph Any Object concerning the "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower)." part from Polymorph, especially concerning objects?

I think, that a creature cannot be turned into a creature with more HD, but since an object has no HD, you can simply turn it into any creature of any HD then (still limited by caster level and 15, of course). Also "subject" seems to refer to a creature rather than an object, so one might argue, that this part only applies to creatures, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee said:

As a sidenote, how would you handle the HD in Polymorph Any Object concerning the "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower)." part from Polymorph, especially concerning objects?

I think, that a creature cannot be turned into a creature with more HD, but since an object has no HD, you can simply turn it into any creature of any HD then (still limited by caster level and 15, of course). Also "subject" seems to refer to a creature rather than an object, so one might argue, that this part only applies to creatures, anyways.

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The subject's HD limitation can only apply to creature subjects (since object subjects do not have hit dice). Since it cannot apply to objects, it does not.

The caster's HD limitation is on the assumed form only. So, if the assumed form has HD, it is limited to the caster's HD limitation in all cases and to the subject's HD limitation if the subject has HD.

In other words, I agree with you since that is the only way to do it.

Saeviomagy, Thenee: You're obviously going to continue to ignore everything I say, so I see no point in repeating myself any further by replying to you. If you feel you've said anything I've not already responded to let me know and I'll reconsider.

Spider said:

The way I see it, the new/different information in Polymorph replaces and supercedes the corresponding information in alter self. It's not like the rules in Polymorph are there to further limit Alter Self.

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First of all, this looks like same kind of circular reasoning Thanee is so fond of. You can't claim to have been convinced that polymorph doesn't further limit alter self because "the rules in polymorph [aren't] there to further limit alter self".

Furthermore you're wrong (regardless of who's right about the size limit). Alter self lets you turn into non-living creatures. Polymorph doesn't. Alter self lets you turn into incorporeal or gaseous forms. Polymorph doesn't.

Spider said:

Therefore, the limit of "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine" replaces "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size". The "smaller than fine" limit really isn't a limit at all; it allows for any size category to be assumed.

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So the "not smaller than Fine limit" must replace the limit in alter self because polymorph can't further limit alter self, but it's not really a limit.

Moderator's Notes: Tone down the snark, folks. Don't tell other people what their motives are, and don't mock folks' positions. If you've got a question about this, feel free to email me.

Daniel

Thanee said:

Thanee said:

...You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. ... That's what Polymorph inherits from Alter Self.

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That's what I did in my "form argument", actually... I dropped *all* restrictions from Alter Self placed on the form ...

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No, you didn't.

Thanee said:

No, it does not, of course. It's vague. But from the other information we have, it should be clear enough, what is meant there (see above posts for details).

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Well, my oppinion, which I stated above, is that the writer of the spell wrote the spell assuming everyone already knew what it did. I think that he did mean to remove the size limitation, but because of that just never actually got around to saying it, skirting around it because everyone already knew that! At least, that's the only reason I can come up with the wording in the spell.

Iku Rex said:

No, you didn't.

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No? Which limitation was not dropped?

Bye
Thanee

Iku Rex said:

You're obviously going to continue to ignore everything I say, so I see no point in repeating myself any further by replying to you.

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That might be.

The only argument I have seen from you, really, is, that Polymorph does not say explicitly:

Either Polymorph is like alter self, except that the form can vary in size more than just one step, ...
or The assumed form can range from Fine to Colossal.
or The assumed form is not limited in size.

If we apply that logic (that everything has to be stated explicitly, and any implications are irrelevant) to the whole rules, they fall apart completely.

Bye
Thanee

Well, two people might read it differently...

Someone might read it and think that they can turn into anything their own size or smaller, for example. And, they would be able to back this up.

ThirdWizard said:

Well, my oppinion, which I stated above, is that the writer of the spell wrote the spell assuming everyone already knew what it did. I think that he did mean to remove the size limitation, but because of that just never actually got around to saying it, skirting around it because everyone already knew that! At least, that's the only reason I can come up with the wording in the spell.

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Given how the spell had a very similar size limitation to the one I'm describing in 3.0, it does not seem reasonable that the person writing the 3.5 version would simply assume that it was gone. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Here's the 3.0 rule:

The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size larger than the subjects’s normal form.

Now imagine that you're writing 3.5 polymorph. You still want the pretty much the same rule in polymorph, but you've decided to make the spell less restricted downwards. (Why would a Tiny Fey be unable to change into a mouse [Fine], while a Colossal dragon can change into a toad [Diminutive]?)

Proposed intended new rule: The new form can range in size from Fine to one size larger than the subject's normal form.

Yeah. That'll work.

But wait. The new polymorph will be based on alter self, and any rule that applies to both should only be stated in alter self to save space. You want alter self limited to relatively minor changes (like in 3.0, where you could add or subtract one foot).

So you make the following rule for alter self.

The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.

What do you need to add in polymorph in order to get the rule you want? You want to replace the downward restriction (only) with a rule saying that you can be as small as Fine. (The first half of the shapechange size rule.) Unfortunately, what you, or some later edit, leaves us with is...

You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine.

The statement in itself is nonsense, and no interpretation can make it "sense". But if you see it as intending to permit forms as small as Fine, replacing the downward restriction in alter self, the intent makes sense. The end result would have been (but technically isn't) a minor tweak from 3.0.

So that's my suggested "reason for the wording of the spell".