Heroes of Battle reviews?

Laman Stahros said:

[RANT/]I really, really wish people would quit saying that the Miniatures Handbook has mass combat rules. It does not!!! Skirmish rules are not mass combat rules!{/RANT]

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Chapter 6 of the Miniatures Handbook is titled Mass Battles Rules. If that's not mass combat rules, I dunno what is...

cignus_pfaccari said:

There are rules for leadership and morale checks, and for determining how much the PCs contribute to the outcome of the battle.

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If there are rules that determine how much PCs affect the outcome of a battle, how is it that there are no mass combat rules? Are you referred to rules in the Miniatures Handbook?

Because it's not meant to be a mass combat rulesbook. There are plenty of other systems to achieve that end. This particular sourcebook is meant to show how a party of adventurers can fit into a campaign involving a war, rather than how the war itself would play itself out mechanically.

Ogrork the Mighty said:

Chapter 6 of the Miniatures Handbook is titled Mass Battles Rules. If that's not mass combat rules, I dunno what is...

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Uhh, then you dunno what is.

Traditional miniture based mass combat systems allowed for playing out battles involving hundreds or thousands of troops by having each miniature represent more then one individual, say 10, 20, or more. (the original) Chainmail, the OD&D Suplement V: Swords and Spells (I think that is what it was called), and the 1st AD&D Battle System boxed set each has rules for this sort of thing.

cignus_pfaccari said:

I like it.

This is more about the PCs being the stars of a fantasy Saving Private Ryan than trying to see what Alexander the Great would've done with a dragon-mounted auxiliary.

SNIP

They use a more modern version of warfare with long battles and around-the-clock operations, And the missions are to go seize that hill, sever the supply lines, free prisoners, etc.

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Deffinately don't like this aspect, though I could see those who do.

Still, it begs the question as to why not just have the PCs carry rifles instead of swords, and use bazookas instead of lightning bolt.

TerraDave said:

Uhh, then you dunno what is.

Traditional miniture based mass combat systems allowed for playing out battles involving hundreds or thousands of troops by having each miniature represent more then one individual, say 10, 20, or more. (the original) Chainmail, the OD&D Suplement V: Swords and Spells (I think that is what it was called), and the 1st AD&D Battle System boxed set each has rules for this sort of thing.

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Buddy, you dunno what you're talking about and you're just embarassing yourself. Chapter 5 of MH is skirmish rules. Chapter 6 is Mass Combat: "These mass battles rules are designed to allow large-scale battles using D&D miniatures." Just b/c these rules use one mini per unit doesn't mean they're not mass combat rules; it just means you need lots of minis! Or, more realistically, you just treat every mini as 5 or 10 guys.

That's great and all that you may/may not consider them to be mass combat rules, but the fact of the matter is that they are. Whether you like it or not. The original poster asked about mass combat rules and the MH has them. Who cares if they meet your level of "traditional" or not; I know I don't. For people needing some rules for mass combat, the MH has 'em. I can't say about the quality b/c I haven't used them, but they're the only official 3E D&D mass combat rules out there.

I really, really wish people would quit saying that the Miniatures Handbook doesn't have mass combat rules. It does!!!

Ogrork the Mighty said:

Because it's not meant to be a mass combat rulesbook. There are plenty of other systems to achieve that end. This particular sourcebook is meant to show how a party of adventurers can fit into a campaign involving a war, rather than how the war itself would play itself out mechanically.

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To add to that:

Before reading HoB, I was constantly on the search for some mass combat system that felt both playable (not too clunky) and detailed at the same time. None of the available systems that I tried out (Fields of Blood, Slavelords/GT, Cry Havoc, Warcraft Mass Combat) really did it for me - but Heroes of Battle convinced me, that, actually, I don't need mass combat.

Really, what gaming is all about, the bottom line, is the adventures of the PCs, not a battle simulator. HoB puts forth the premise that the DM can plan the battle beforehand, and then give the PCs the chance to influence it at certain points to achieve different outcomes, depending on what they do. Railroading? I don't think so. It's a necessary simplification that lets you concentrate on the encounters that your PCs have, while the battle rages all around them. If you really want to do some randomization, though, you might consider using Slavelords' system in conjunction with HoB to great effect.

Long story short: Great book, 4/5 content, 4/5 art (not a single 'meh' piece this time - great stuff by WAR). I love it, and I'm glad that I spent my money on this and not Champions of Ruin. It's definitely a DM's book, though (which, in my book, is a good thing).

Ryltar said:

Before reading HoB, I was constantly on the search for some mass combat system that felt both playable (not too clunky) and detailed at the same time. None of the available systems that I tried out (Fields of Blood, Slavelords/GT, Cry Havoc, Warcraft Mass Combat) really did it for me - but Heroes of Battle convinced me, that, actually, I don't need mass combat.

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Thanks. That alone makes me think that HoB is exactlly what I'm looking for.

Yep, this book keeps climbing a little higher on my to buy list...

When editing the Helm's Deep battle sequences in "The Two Towers", Peter Jackson discovered that the action began to flag whenever too much time was spent away from the main characters.

Generic orcs and humans hitting each other wasn't as interesting.

HoB sounds very much like it takes that approach to mass combat - I can't wait to see the book.

Cheers!