Two stat block things that bug me

Man-thing · Jun 2, 2005

Because of John Cooper's reviews, I like many others probably have begun to look at my monsters statistics more closely. I have two issues that seem to be dropped.

1) I was looking through my monster manual and I saw a good number of 2 HD creatures that have Weapon Finesse.

For example: the porpoise

It is a 2 HD animal with Weapon Finesse. I know it has a Base Attack +1 but when it was a baby porpoise with 1 HD and got to develop a feat it didn't have a Base Attack of +1. I think authors need to be more cognizant of when a creature gains a feat.

2) Secondly how come no monster include the speed bonus to their jump? When I read jump in my PHB it appears that the creatures get a bonus based on their base speed. This bonus is always in effect so why isn't it reflected in the statistic block.

coyote6 · Jun 2, 2005

1) Monsters generally aren't written up as if they advance from 1 HD to however many they have; they are what they are. AFAIK, a 5 HD advanced wolf doesn't start out as a 2 HD wolf, then grow to 3, 4, and finally 5 HD; it's a freakishly big, strong, tough wolf. Edit: In other words, I disagree with your premise.

2) Hmm. Looking at the animals in the SRD, it almost looks like the speed bonus gets subsumed in a "racial bonus to Jump". The first non-animal monster I checked (the greater barghest) seems to have its speed bonus included in its Jump score. I recall that other non-animals I've checked in the past seemed to include the speed bonus, too (but I don't recall which critters those were

).

Man-thing · Jun 2, 2005

coyote6 said:
1) Monsters generally aren't written up as if they advance from 1 HD to however many they have; they are what they are. AFAIK, a 5 HD advanced wolf doesn't start out as a 2 HD wolf, then grow to 3, 4, and finally 5 HD; it's a freakishly big, strong, tough wolf. Edit: In other words, I disagree with your premise.

2) Hmm. Looking at the animals in the SRD, it almost looks like the speed bonus gets subsumed in a "racial bonus to Jump". The first non-animal monster I checked (the greater barghest) seems to have its speed bonus included in its Jump score. I recall that other non-animals I've checked in the past seemed to include the speed bonus, too (but I don't recall which critters those were ).

1) I'm basing my premise on the situation that all monsters stating was reformed in 3.5 to conform to the same rules as character advancement. I disagree with the idea that a 5 HD advanced wolf didn't grow into that advancement. For comparison I would take the example from the MM p.292.

6 HD Otyugh is advanced to a 15 HD Otygh (In this example of advancing feats are added to the Otyugh) and not that the 15 HD is given 6 feats of choice. (3 were previously picked and it grew into 3 new ones)

2) I never noticed that, I'm going to have to do more checking.

wait. When I look at a leopard it gains a +8 racial bonus (but the bonus from speed should only be +4) so I'm not sure that works either but I will check the Barghest later.

dcollins · Jun 2, 2005

I agree that the original poster's point #1 is incorrect. Monsters are not designed assuming they grew from baby 1HD creatures. You won't find any design statement to that effect, and moreover, there aren't even any rules for "baby" monsters given anywhere at all. Advancing past standard yes, regressing below standard no.

What you're asking for isn't a stat-block change, it's a complete revamp of how every monster gets designed.

Scharlata · Jun 2, 2005

Man-thing said:
[...] 1) I was looking through my monster manual and I saw a good number of 2 HD creatures that have Weapon Finesse. [...]

Hi!

You probably know there's an Errata sheet from WotC concerning Animals and Feats?
I.e. the Badger (p. 268, MM) gets Track as a Bonus feat, Weapon Finesse as a Bonus feat [new], and Agile as regular feat [new]. The porpoise wasn't revamped. Possibly because nobody considers them a threat

.

Other animals thet got a new share of feats are:
Cat, Weapon Finesse , Stealthy
Eagle, Weapon Finesse , Alertness
Hawk, Weapon Finesse , Alertness
Lizard, Weapon Finesse , Stealthy
Monkey, Weapon Finesse , Agile
Owl, Weapon Finesse , Alertness
Rat, Weapon Finesse , Stealthy
Raven, Weapon Finesse , Alertness
Constrictor Snake, Alertness, Thoughness , Improved Initiative
Snake, Tiny Viper, Weapon Finesse , Improved Initiative
Snake, Small Viper, Weapon Finesse , Improved Initiative
Snake, Medium Viper, Weapon Finesse , Improved Initiative
Weasel, Viper, Weapon Finesse , Agile

Enjoy

Pinotage · Jun 2, 2005

Scharlata said:
The porpoise wasn't revamped. Possibly because nobody considers them a threat .

Heh! The only thing the porpoise is useful for is when casting Embrace the Wild. Hmmm, Blindsight!

Pinotage

Man-thing · Jun 2, 2005

Scharlata said:
Hi!
You probably know there's an Errata sheet from WotC concerning Animals and Feats?
I.e. the Badger (p. 268, MM) gets Track as a Bonus feat, Weapon Finesse as a Bonus feat [new], and Agile as regular feat [new]. The porpoise wasn't revamped. Possibly because nobody considers them a threat .

Yes, I was aware of those. I just believe that 2HD creatures shouldn't suddenly qualify for Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus. It would have been nice if WOTc Errata was more complete. A good number of creatures in the Animal section appear to have the wrong number of skill points as well.

Like: Pony (2 HD) should have 5 skill points

It has

Listen +5 (+5 skill ranks, +0 Wis)
Spot +5 (+5 skill ranks, +0 Wis)

Which is 10 by my count.

Patryn of Elvenshae · Jun 2, 2005

Man-thing said:
Yes, I was aware of those. I just believe that 2HD creatures shouldn't suddenly qualify for Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus. It would have been nice if WOTc Errata was more complete.

They don't "suddenly qualify."

They get it as a racial bonus feat, meaning that they do not need to meet the prerequisites.

Man-thing · Jun 2, 2005

dcollins said:
I agree that the original poster's point #1 is incorrect. Monsters are not designed assuming they grew from baby 1HD creatures. You won't find any design statement to that effect, and moreover, there aren't even any rules for "baby" monsters given anywhere at all. Advancing past standard yes, regressing below standard no.

What you're asking for isn't a stat-block change, it's a complete revamp of how every monster gets designed.

So by your and the other posters assertation that monsters are not built up this would be perfectly fine build of a "new monster".

Outsider, 8HD, BAB +8, (should have 4 feats), I can decide to make it a multiple arm demon and take my four feats as:

Improved Critical (warhammer)
Improved Critical (rapier)
Improved Critical (longsword)
Improved Critical (battleaxe)

Man-thing · Jun 2, 2005

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
They get it as a racial bonus feat, meaning that they do not need to meet the prerequisites.

Thank you for joining this discussion. I agreed with you totally. The creatures I'm talking about like the porpoise and octopus don't have it listed as a racial bonus feat. I believe they should.

Two stat block things that bug me

Man-thing

First Post

coyote6

Adventurer

Man-thing

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dcollins

Explorer

Scharlata

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Pinotage

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Man-thing

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Patryn of Elvenshae

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Man-thing

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Man-thing

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