The Ultimate Mid-High level fighter fix
- Thread starter The Souljourner
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The Souljourner
First Post
But accelerating feat acquisition gets broken as you get more decent high level feats. You would have to actually tone down the high level feats, because you're gaining too many of them.
Actually, my feat needs some tweaking, because you could essentially do the same thing with it, given the right sort of high level feats.
What I wanted to do was give a two for one if one or both of the feats you choose could have been taken much earlier in your career. Your suggestion, however, lets you take twice as many feats which can be the more powerful ones available at high level.
I don't know that there's an elegant way to modify my feat to say something like "the first feat must be something you could have taken when at half your current class level"... but that's pretty much what I want it to say.
-The Souljourner
Actually, my feat needs some tweaking, because you could essentially do the same thing with it, given the right sort of high level feats.
What I wanted to do was give a two for one if one or both of the feats you choose could have been taken much earlier in your career. Your suggestion, however, lets you take twice as many feats which can be the more powerful ones available at high level.
I don't know that there's an elegant way to modify my feat to say something like "the first feat must be something you could have taken when at half your current class level"... but that's pretty much what I want it to say.
-The Souljourner
In order to fix the fighter, we must make him gain power exponentially, just as spell casters do.
The best way to do this, IMHO, is to make each Feat as orthogonal (or synergistic) as possible.
Good examples of this are most early feats:
-Power Attack
-Combat Reflexes
Both Feats give the Fighter new tricks. New things to do in combat.
Two completely different sets of abilities.
Bad synergy:
-Weapon Specialization
-Greater Weapon Specialization
The new Feat doesn't grant any new ability.
They just make the fighter better at something he probably is already good at.
A rules I liked was that allowed to apply all your Weapon Focus chain feats to any new weapon acquired with Weapon Focus.
Example:
-I have Weapon Focus (longbow) and Weapon Specialization (longbow)
If I get Weapon Focus (longsword) I gain Weapon Specialization (longsword)
In fact, all Weapon Focus dependent Feats should be rewritten as:
"this feat applies to any weapon you have Weapon Focus on"
That's kind of synergistic, because you gain "power" quadratically.
The best way to do this, IMHO, is to make each Feat as orthogonal (or synergistic) as possible.
Good examples of this are most early feats:
-Power Attack
-Combat Reflexes
Both Feats give the Fighter new tricks. New things to do in combat.
Two completely different sets of abilities.
Bad synergy:
-Weapon Specialization
-Greater Weapon Specialization
The new Feat doesn't grant any new ability.
They just make the fighter better at something he probably is already good at.
A rules I liked was that allowed to apply all your Weapon Focus chain feats to any new weapon acquired with Weapon Focus.
Example:
-I have Weapon Focus (longbow) and Weapon Specialization (longbow)
If I get Weapon Focus (longsword) I gain Weapon Specialization (longsword)
In fact, all Weapon Focus dependent Feats should be rewritten as:
"this feat applies to any weapon you have Weapon Focus on"
That's kind of synergistic, because you gain "power" quadratically.
FireLance
Legend
One idea I've ben toying with, but never got round to giving it a complete write-up, is to make the effectiveness of the fighter feats dependant on the number of fighter feats that you have.
Given that a fighter gets 11 bonus feats from class levels by 20th level, and 7 more from character levels (8 if he is human), this means an absolute cap of 18 or 19 feats by level 20.
So, Weapon Focus could give a +1 bonus to attack rolls with the specified weapon, +1 for every 9 fighter feats you have, so a fighter that really focuses on fighting could get +3 to hit by 20th level. There would be no need for Greater Weapon Focus.
Weapon Specialization could apply to any weapon a character has taken Weapon Focus in, as suggested by sfedi, and could add +1 per 3 fighter feats to the damage dealt by that weapon, so a focused fighter could get +6 to damage by 20th level. Again, there would be no need for Greater Weapon Specialization.
The bonus for Improved Initiative, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip and similar feats could be 4 plus 1 per 4 fighter feats, so a high-level fighter could get a +8 bonus.
I'd make Combat Expertise work off fighting defensively, so that when fighting defensively, the penalty to attack rolls is only -2 (instead of -4). In addition, you get a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 6 fighter feats that you have. So, a high-level fighter could take a -2 penalty to hit and get a +5 dodge bonus to AC.
Similarly, for Power Attack, you only take a -2 penalty to hit, and the bonus to damage depends on the weapon: A light weapon gets a +1 bonus to damage, +1 for every 9 fighter feats. A weapon used in one hand that is not light gets a +2 bonus to damage, +1 for every 6 fighter feats. A weapon used in two hands gets a +3 bonus to damage, +1 for every 3 fighter feats. A weapon used with Weapon Finesse is treated as one category lighter, so a rapier used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as a light weapon, and a spiked chain used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as a one weapon used in one hand. A barbarian can add the number of times he can rage per day to the number of fighter feats that he has to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
With Toughness, you get 2 hit points +1 for every fighter feat (including Toughness). This means that you can no longer take it multiple times, though.
Dodge gives you a +1 dodge bonus, +1 for every 9 fighter feats.
Improved Critical improves the threat range depending on the weapon. A weapon with a threat range of 20 improves its threat range by 1 plus 1 for every 18 fighter feats. A weapon with a threat range of 19-20 improves its threat range by 2 plus 1 for every 9 fighter feats. A weapon with a threat range of 18-20 improves its threat range by 3 plus 1 for every 6 fighter feats. In addition, it would apply to any weapon a character has taken Weapon Focus in.
Cleave can be used once per round, plus an additional time for every 3 fighter feats. There would be no need for Great Cleave.
Improved Unarmed Strike could increase the base damage of your unarmed strikes by one step per 3 fighter feats. A monk can add his monk level to his number of fighter feats to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
Deflect Arrows could allow you to deflect one arrow per round, plus an additional arrow for every 9 fighter feats. A monk can add his monk level to his number of fighter feats to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
Stunning Fist could be used once per day, plus once more per two fighter feats. A monk can add his monk level to his number of fighter feats to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
Thoughts? Other suggsestions?
Given that a fighter gets 11 bonus feats from class levels by 20th level, and 7 more from character levels (8 if he is human), this means an absolute cap of 18 or 19 feats by level 20.
So, Weapon Focus could give a +1 bonus to attack rolls with the specified weapon, +1 for every 9 fighter feats you have, so a fighter that really focuses on fighting could get +3 to hit by 20th level. There would be no need for Greater Weapon Focus.
Weapon Specialization could apply to any weapon a character has taken Weapon Focus in, as suggested by sfedi, and could add +1 per 3 fighter feats to the damage dealt by that weapon, so a focused fighter could get +6 to damage by 20th level. Again, there would be no need for Greater Weapon Specialization.
The bonus for Improved Initiative, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip and similar feats could be 4 plus 1 per 4 fighter feats, so a high-level fighter could get a +8 bonus.
I'd make Combat Expertise work off fighting defensively, so that when fighting defensively, the penalty to attack rolls is only -2 (instead of -4). In addition, you get a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 6 fighter feats that you have. So, a high-level fighter could take a -2 penalty to hit and get a +5 dodge bonus to AC.
Similarly, for Power Attack, you only take a -2 penalty to hit, and the bonus to damage depends on the weapon: A light weapon gets a +1 bonus to damage, +1 for every 9 fighter feats. A weapon used in one hand that is not light gets a +2 bonus to damage, +1 for every 6 fighter feats. A weapon used in two hands gets a +3 bonus to damage, +1 for every 3 fighter feats. A weapon used with Weapon Finesse is treated as one category lighter, so a rapier used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as a light weapon, and a spiked chain used with Weapon Finesse deals extra damage as a one weapon used in one hand. A barbarian can add the number of times he can rage per day to the number of fighter feats that he has to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
With Toughness, you get 2 hit points +1 for every fighter feat (including Toughness). This means that you can no longer take it multiple times, though.
Dodge gives you a +1 dodge bonus, +1 for every 9 fighter feats.
Improved Critical improves the threat range depending on the weapon. A weapon with a threat range of 20 improves its threat range by 1 plus 1 for every 18 fighter feats. A weapon with a threat range of 19-20 improves its threat range by 2 plus 1 for every 9 fighter feats. A weapon with a threat range of 18-20 improves its threat range by 3 plus 1 for every 6 fighter feats. In addition, it would apply to any weapon a character has taken Weapon Focus in.
Cleave can be used once per round, plus an additional time for every 3 fighter feats. There would be no need for Great Cleave.
Improved Unarmed Strike could increase the base damage of your unarmed strikes by one step per 3 fighter feats. A monk can add his monk level to his number of fighter feats to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
Deflect Arrows could allow you to deflect one arrow per round, plus an additional arrow for every 9 fighter feats. A monk can add his monk level to his number of fighter feats to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
Stunning Fist could be used once per day, plus once more per two fighter feats. A monk can add his monk level to his number of fighter feats to determine the effectiveness of this feat.
Thoughts? Other suggsestions?
Last edited:
The Souljourner
First Post
Sfedi - you hit the nail on the head. New abilities are far more interesting and generally more powerful than simply adding bigger numbers to what you can already do. Fighters need more feats like that... but feats that get more amazing at higher levels.
Firelance - although your idea does make a fighter's feats do more with more levels... I don't think that's necessarily the best way to go. I don't want to discourage fighters from taking non-fighter feats. Plus, keeping track of exactly what bonus you get from what feat would get to be a pain. "Wait... is this one ever 3 or 4? 6? What?"
What I think would be better would be feat chains that both improve the value of other feats you already have, *and* give new abilities.
For example:
Lightning Strikes [fighter]
The speed with which you wield your weapon is almost superhuman.
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Weapon Focus, 14th level fighter
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to initiative rolls (this stacks with all other bonuses to initiative). You may draw and/or sheathe weapons as a swift action (or whatever the one is that lets you do it when it's not your turn). When wielding a weapon for which you took Weapon Focus, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus during a full attack with that weapon. If you choose to do so, all your attacks until the beginning of your next turn are at -2 to hit.
As a standalone feat, it's very powerful, but when you look at it as expanding the abilities of two of its prerequisite feats, it becomes much more reasonable.
-The Souljourner
Firelance - although your idea does make a fighter's feats do more with more levels... I don't think that's necessarily the best way to go. I don't want to discourage fighters from taking non-fighter feats. Plus, keeping track of exactly what bonus you get from what feat would get to be a pain. "Wait... is this one ever 3 or 4? 6? What?"
What I think would be better would be feat chains that both improve the value of other feats you already have, *and* give new abilities.
For example:
Lightning Strikes [fighter]
The speed with which you wield your weapon is almost superhuman.
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, Quickdraw, Weapon Focus, 14th level fighter
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to initiative rolls (this stacks with all other bonuses to initiative). You may draw and/or sheathe weapons as a swift action (or whatever the one is that lets you do it when it's not your turn). When wielding a weapon for which you took Weapon Focus, you may make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus during a full attack with that weapon. If you choose to do so, all your attacks until the beginning of your next turn are at -2 to hit.
As a standalone feat, it's very powerful, but when you look at it as expanding the abilities of two of its prerequisite feats, it becomes much more reasonable.
-The Souljourner
That was another thing I forgot to mention:FireLance said:
Scalable Feats
Feats that mantain their usefulness as you raise in levels.
For example, a Feat that let's you Stun an opponent with a hit, is scalable.
(Stunning Fist is too crapy, IMO)
I agree with The Souljourner that is becomes cumbersome to keep tha bonuses of those feats.
Although it's something done once per level... and is much less bookkeeping than keeping track of how your spells improve when you raise in caster level.
Mmm...
It doesn't really become that more difficult to keep track of your bonuses as you'll just note them in parantheses when levelling up.
Like the Lightning Strikes feat.
Perhaps add something like :
Powerful Strikes [fighter]
The power with which you wield your weapon is almost superhuman.
Prerequisites: Cleave, Improved Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, 14th level fighter
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to confirm critical hits with all weapons for which you have Weapon Focus. When using Cleave or Great Cleave you double you Str bonus to damage. When making a Power Attack with a weapon for which you took Weapon Focus, you gain 1½ times the penalty to hit as a bonus to damage (x3 with 2-handed weapons).
Fluid Combat [fighter]
Your mobility is almost superhuman.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Tumble 5 ranks, 14th level fighter
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to AC when moving within a threatened area (stacks with Mobility). As a Swift action once per round you may make a 5-ft. step whenever someone attacks you in melee. If this puts you out of reach of the attacker he may choose to follow you, but you gain the benefits of Mobility and this feat on your AC against his attacks. When making a Spring Attack you (but not your allies) treat the opponent as flat-footed.
Just some suggestions to high-level fighter feats.
Like the Lightning Strikes feat.
Perhaps add something like :
Powerful Strikes [fighter]
The power with which you wield your weapon is almost superhuman.
Prerequisites: Cleave, Improved Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, 14th level fighter
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to confirm critical hits with all weapons for which you have Weapon Focus. When using Cleave or Great Cleave you double you Str bonus to damage. When making a Power Attack with a weapon for which you took Weapon Focus, you gain 1½ times the penalty to hit as a bonus to damage (x3 with 2-handed weapons).
Fluid Combat [fighter]
Your mobility is almost superhuman.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Tumble 5 ranks, 14th level fighter
Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to AC when moving within a threatened area (stacks with Mobility). As a Swift action once per round you may make a 5-ft. step whenever someone attacks you in melee. If this puts you out of reach of the attacker he may choose to follow you, but you gain the benefits of Mobility and this feat on your AC against his attacks. When making a Spring Attack you (but not your allies) treat the opponent as flat-footed.
Just some suggestions to high-level fighter feats.
The Souljourner
First Post
Thanee said:I didn't say it's not useful, I said it doesn't help (with the problem of the fighter's lack of high level abilities, that is).
Bye
Thanee
Well, ok. I see your point, however, getting the effects of two feats for the price of one is still pretty good. It's a feat probably best for the mid levels (10-14) than the really high levels (14+).
Baragos - I'm not a fan of increasing the damage you get from power attack... it's one of the reasons the Frenzied Berserker is so insane. I do like the rest of the feat... you should clarify what you mean by doubling strength on power attack.. I assume that would be x2 for one handed weapons and x2.5 for two handed weapons (using standard doubling rules).
I do like the way these feats are turning out, though, on a power scale. They're actually getting to be good enough to make someone want to play a fighter past level 12 (or um... 4)
-The Souljourner
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