"A ten-foot wide hallway stretches thirty feet and then . . ."

tonym · Oct 23, 2005

I used to intentionally design my Old Skool dungeons to thwart and confuse my mapping players. To further this, I would oblige them to map on plain white paper, and I'd give rough estimates on room sizes ("Looks 30 or 40' long).

Even worse, they were obliged to always map on the same sheet of paper per dungeon. So when they reached the edge of the paper, they'd have to start mapping somewhere else on the sheet and would draw an arrow to connect the two areas.

Eventually their maps were totally chaotic and confusing, like the musings of a mad geometry professor.

Somehow, it added to the fun.

Tony M

ThirdWizard · Oct 23, 2005

Back in the day we had a mapper. I'm not sure when we stopped. It was probably around the time that dungeons became less important to the campaigns, so the mapping was lost to the wayside. Nowadays, I draw maps on my whiteboard, and I even draw unimportant maps where there will be no encounters (to add that extra step of unknown as to when an encoutner will happen). With the map drawn out, the players know all the dimensions, but I still give descriptions in vague amounts. I never really thought about that before, its kind of unnecessary, ah well.

As for movement around previously visited areas. The PCs just say "I'm going to X location" and they're there, or "We're headed out" and they're out. So there isn't any real need for mapping on the Players part anyway.

Umbran · Oct 23, 2005

ssampier said:
Mark, I'm not an old-school gamer, so I always thought it was a bit silly that DMs give "accurate" dimensions in description. I would prefer this description,

"A long hallway, wide enough for two armored soldiers to pass, stretches out before you..."

As for mapping, we're usually pretty casual about the "realism", so we tend to just assume that you can find your way out (unless it's Undermountain or other mega-dungeon).

Finding your way out is only one problem. Knowing how to get from point A to point B, or which way the ogers might come from when things start turning rough, is another. And simply giving the players a real sense of the place as a real place is yet another.

Even though people often aren't good at esitmating distances accurately, they do have an idea of "how far it is" to the other side of the room, or between themselves in the living room and their bedroom upstairs. They know the size of the space relative to how fast they cna move, how far they can throw things, and so forth. Humans are good at making mental maps.

Those inaccurate descriptions don't convey the same information. "Long" could be 30 feet, or 50 feet, or 100 feet. The characters would know the difference instantly. And the PCs would have a far better mental picture of the relative positions of places than the player is likely to get, or be able to keep in mind, from vague desciriptions. The map is one decent in-game mechanic for conveying that information.

cignus_pfaccari · Oct 23, 2005

We don't map.

If it matters, the DM will draw a general view of it on the small dry-erase board. If we're gonna fight, he'll draw it out on the battleboard.

It's amazing how many cuss words one DM uses when an adventure has a blobby room.

Brad

ssampier · Oct 24, 2005

Umbran said:
Finding your way out is only one problem. Knowing how to get from point A to point B, or which way the ogers might come from when things start turning rough, is another. And simply giving the players a real sense of the place as a real place is yet another.

Even though people often aren't good at esitmating distances accurately, they do have an idea of "how far it is" to the other side of the room, or between themselves in the living room and their bedroom upstairs. They know the size of the space relative to how fast they cna move, how far they can throw things, and so forth. Humans are good at making mental maps.

Those inaccurate descriptions don't convey the same information. "Long" could be 30 feet, or 50 feet, or 100 feet. The characters would know the difference instantly. And the PCs would have a far better mental picture of the relative positions of places than the player is likely to get, or be able to keep in mind, from vague desciriptions. The map is one decent in-game mechanic for conveying that information.

In some respect I agree with you. Small distances like tavern rooms are much easier to guess. However, in a dungeon where you have a long hallway that you can't see the end of it (beyond the distance of the torch light), your guess is as good as mine. If a player wants an figure, I'll give them an approximation (around 25% +/-). If they want a better figure they can always pace the room and get a fairly accurate number (+/- 10%). There's a good reason tapes and measures exist in the real world.

MonsterMash · Oct 24, 2005

These days I still do it, but not to the same level of care and detail as in the OD&D days.

In the main game I'm playing in the GM has drawn rough maps which the players can use rather than us having to try and draw a map from the description.

MacMathan · Oct 24, 2005

Didn't in 1982, still don't today. It slowed down the game, was a somewhat unrealistic for us etc.

We have used minis and some sort of play surface, now days battle-mats, almost since the beginning.

Then again we never went in for the party leader/caller either.

Umbran · Oct 24, 2005

ssampier said:
In some respect I agree with you. Small distances like tavern rooms are much easier to guess. However, in a dungeon where you have a long hallway that you can't see the end of it (beyond the distance of the torch light), your guess is as good as mine. If a player wants an figure, I'll give them an approximation (around 25% +/-). If they want a better figure they can always pace the room and get a fairly accurate number (+/- 10%). There's a good reason tapes and measures exist in the real world.

You underestimate the power of human abilities when tools are not available.

Be that as it may - the point isn't that characters actually know the distances in feet, any more than the characters have in-game knowlege of hit points. But if I put you in a space, you know whether you can hit the far wall with a baseball. But if I tell you the room is "large", you don't know. If I put you in a corridor, you have some idea of how long it will take you to get to the far end. But you don't if all you know is that it is "long", and so on.

The measures on the map are merely a way to communicate to the players the things the characters do know, with as few words as possible.

ssampier · Oct 24, 2005

Umbran said:
You underestimate the power of human abilities when tools are not available.

Be that as it may - the point isn't that characters actually know the distances in feet, any more than the characters have in-game knowlege of hit points. But if I put you in a space, you know whether you can hit the far wall with a baseball. But if I tell you the room is "large", you don't know. If I put you in a corridor, you have some idea of how long it will take you to get to the far end. But you don't if all you know is that it is "long", and so on.

The measures on the map are merely a way to communicate to the players the things the characters do know, with as few words as possible.

I guess this is where we differ. I personally want players to do some legwork before I give all the information. Simply guesstimated distances are haphazard at best. If you don't believe me, send a set of random people (not architects or engineers) to a city park they're never been to. First, have them write down the appropriate size and shape of the grass in each section. Now have them run the perimeter and guess the distance. Do this several times and compare the numbers. I'm positive some numbers will be very close and others will be completely wrong.

Now neither mine nor your method is particularly wrong. I just prefer not giving out exact distances, so I always have secrets up my sleeve (especially so it doesn't resemble a miniatures game of 1" 10 foot movements).

Altalazar · Oct 24, 2005

I remember the days of yore when we did mapping on a piece of paper. But then we got a chalkboard / whiteboard / battlemat, and we saw less of that, though some players still mapped things out. Personally, I don't see all that much fun in being a surveyor as a player. Not unless I'm going to use the place as a lair of my own afterwards, in which case, the DM would probably just give a copy of the map when we'd cleared it out and spent some 'game time' surveying it (with little real time used up in doing so beyond saying 'i survey it') I'd rather spend my precious gaming minutes doing something more fun than trying to guess at dimensions and draw a map.

"A ten-foot wide hallway stretches thirty feet and then . . ."

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