Demonic Lore

grodog · Oct 26, 2005

IIRC, in one of the Greyhawk artifacts articles I co-wrote with Erik in Dragons 294/299, I identified one or more of the demon lords from the MM2 list with a specific title/sphere of influence. I think it was Gresil, Lord of Demonic Knowledge, but don't recall offhand now, and I can't check, since my magazines are all 1800 miles away in KS.

edit: on the "requests" side, I'd really like to see spiritwrack and the conjuration circles from Dragon 56 and S4 return to the game, Erik! Those two versions of circles differ from one another, and also differ from the info in the 1e DMG and what eventually appeared under ensnarement (UA page 60); I don't recall whether or not the original version of ensnarement from Dragon 68, page 27 differs from the version published in S4 or not.

BOZ · Oct 26, 2005

Erik Mona said:
As I said above, these posts are very helpful. What strikes me most of all, especially upon reviewing Grover's list of Abyssal layers, is how so many of us seem to have obsessive-compulsive lists of the same things. Personally, this sort of lore is 100% intertwined with my love of the D&D game as a whole, and is why I am unsatisfied with the modern FR and Eberron approach to the planes. I respect those approaches as unique creations, but when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons, give me the Great Wheel or give me nothing.

BTW, amen brother.

i loved FR in 2E, and for the above reason and others i barely even look at it in 3E.

Erik Mona said:
My own list lacked Salted Wound, layer 313, the Mind of Evil, and Malignebula.

you might want to check on those first, considering some of the layers on Rip's list are "semi-official" - could be that it was vaguely mentioned in one source and someone on the internet expanded on it.

as to the Mind of Evil, that was in Dragon 151 (mentioned above by me at least once). keep an eye out for Siragle's realm "Sleepless" - it was in Dungeon #28, but i only saw a layer # and not a name for the layer. Sleepless was the name of the module in which Siragle appeared, not that this is a bad name for the layer or anything.

Col_Pladoh · Oct 26, 2005

Boz,

If you haven't seen it, have a look at Demonographia, The Fountainhead of Diabolic Portraiture, from Trident Books, 1999. I have copy 375 of 1,000 printed

Cheers,
Gary

Shade · Oct 26, 2005

Erik Mona said:
As I said above, these posts are very helpful. What strikes me most of all, especially upon reviewing Grover's list of Abyssal layers, is how so many of us seem to have obsessive-compulsive lists of the same things. Personally, this sort of lore is 100% intertwined with my love of the D&D game as a whole, and is why I am unsatisfied with the modern FR and Eberron approach to the planes. I respect those approaches as unique creations, but when it comes to Dungeons & Dragons, give me the Great Wheel or give me nothing.

--Erik

Ditto.

That might make a nice editorial in a certain magazine, eh?

I still use FR as my base setting, but my cosmology is and always will be the Great Wheel.

BOZ · Oct 26, 2005

shade, if i ever pick FR back up again as DM, i suspect my version of the setting will be very similar to yours.

i'll use the 3E books, but much revision work will be necessary - work that i currently don't have time to do, thus i am not DMing FR.

Grover Cleaveland · Oct 26, 2005

BOZ said:
you might want to check on those first, considering some of the layers on Rip's list are "semi-official" - could be that it was vaguely mentioned in one source and someone on the internet expanded on it.

as to the Mind of Evil, that was in Dragon 151 (mentioned above by me at least once). keep an eye out for Siragle's realm "Sleepless" - it was in Dungeon #28, but i only saw a layer # and not a name for the layer. Sleepless was the name of the module in which Siragle appeared, not that this is a bad name for the layer or anything.

As I believe I noted, the name "Salted Wound" was invented by Chris Nichols on the Mimir - I included it in the list because the Ghoul King definitely rules a layer somewhere, and it might as well be that one (but consider the name a placeholder until something official comes along). This is much the same process as how I identified layer #65 (mentioned as Lolth's second layer in various 1st edition places) as Zanassu's former layer - we know Zanassu was killed by Selvetarm, so it makes sense that one of the layers Lolth rules now formally belonged to him.

"Sleepless" is also something of a placeholder name, named after the adventure for lack of anything more persuasive.

The name assigned to layer #666 is similarly unofficial - created, as I said, by a fan named William Northern, though the layer itself is from one of the Blood Wars novels.

Layer 313 and Malignebula are from Planescape.

Clueless · Oct 26, 2005

Alzrius said:
Ironically, I just got done pestering Clueless about another update to be made (and after that I need to update it again for that demigod in Heroes of Horror.

Speaking of updates - new update is up here.

Erik Mona · Oct 27, 2005

Ok, here's a new question.

I'm a little confused by the existing continuity regarding Layer 400, the Woeful Escarand, particularly in regards to manes and the Pits of Despair. Numerous sources suggest that manes are your run of the mill chaotic evil petitioners. My question is this: Do _all_ of them appear on this layer to be judged? That seems like a lot of work for the Lords of Woe, and one wonders how so many manes manage to end the process as, well, manes.

My initial thought (as outlined briefly in "Armies of the Abyss") is that a lot of petitioners show up on the first layer, and are harvested by demons associated with various lords, captured, and taken through portals to the domains of their new masters to be used as troops, food, etc. I'm unsure how to fit this into the existing material on the Woeful Escarand, however, and would appreciate the scholarship of the fine folks posting to this thread.

Also, it's somewhat confusing trying to tie all of this in with the larvae, which went from something exclusive to Hades (1e) to something that seems to transcend the Lower Planes. Larvae can be turned into quasits and imps, which can evolve to more powerful demons (like manes). What makes one dead CE character a manes and the other a larva?

--Erik

Grover Cleaveland · Oct 27, 2005

According to Planescape lore, demons and devils start out as larvae and evolve into beings appropriate to their respective planes (manes and nupperibos, respectively - lemures are created from nupperibos). Thus, all manes were once larvae.

Souls travel to the Outer Planes via astral conduits. Generally, these conduits lead only to the first layers of the various planes - the Plain of Infinite Portals, in the case of the Abyss. Conduits that travel to deeper layers are called planar conduits - see A Guide to the Astral Plane and the Planewalker's Handbook.

Probably, most larvae form at the ends of astral conduits in the Plain of Infinite Portals. It's possible that there are planar conduits which go on to channel a large percentage (or even, in theory, all) of them right away into Woeful Escarond, but it's just as reasonable to take the Armies of the Abyss route and say the nalfeshnee have to manually herd them into the portal leading to their layer. IMC, babau are the primary herders of petitioners, most of them serving the nalfeshnee in this regard. They're the main kind of demon in charge of herding minor fiends in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium and the Monstrous Compendium: Outer Planes Appendix, and I like that their Grim Reaper appearance is appropriate for this.

Erik Mona · Oct 27, 2005

Hmmm. This is essentially as far as I got, and it really leaves a bit of a problem in that the 1e MM and subsequent material on manes really do suggest that they are the souls of CE dead folk, and it appears from my reading of the Woeful Escarand material (I don't have it in front of me) that it is _manes_ who are judged (in the main, heh heh) in the court of woe, and not larvae.

Am I missing something? It seems like larvae are an extra step that is sometimes, but not always, necessary.

In other words, it seems like some "souls" become manes automatically, thus skipping the larva status.

Am I missing something?

--Erik

Demonic Lore

grodog

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BOZ

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Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

Shade

Monster Junkie

BOZ

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Grover Cleaveland

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Clueless

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Erik Mona

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Grover Cleaveland

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Erik Mona

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