TWF penalties

D Money1644 · Nov 22, 2005

i was under the impression that if you're wielding two weapons, but you only attack with your primary hand, you take no TWF penalties. but at my last game session the DM ruled that if you have two weapons out (a longsword and a shortsword in this case) then you're fighting with two weapons and thus take the standard TWF penalties regardless of whether or not you actually attacked with both weapons. this really bugged me because i'd read somewhere that if you only attack with one weapon you take no penalties, and i'd asked my DM about this previously and he'd said that same thing. then on sunday, he suddenly went against what he'd said earlier. IIRC, this exact problem isn't covered in the PHB, so is it a house rule thing and varies from game to game? i understand both sides of the argument and it's perfectly logical either way, so i wanted to get some opinions from gamers more experienced than myself.

Infiniti2000 · Nov 22, 2005

D Money1644 said:
i was under the impression that if you're wielding two weapons, but you only attack with your primary hand, you take no TWF penalties.

The debate on this arises because you use the word "wield." The rules state,

SRD said:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

Note that it doesn't specifically require you to attack. It says you can attack, not that you must attack to get the penalties. Merely wielding the weapon is sufficient. Some will also argue that there's a difference (rules-based) between wielding a weapon and merely holding it. Thus, if you held the weapon in your off-hand (not wielding it), then you would not be 'fighting this way' and thus not be subject to the penalties, but then you could also not take an attack of opportunity with that weapon.

This barely scratches the surface probably, but suffice it to say you have a leg to stand on whichever side you take. Of noted posters in this forum, Hyp says you get the penalties and Patryn says you do not. I side with Patryn on this one.

Jdvn1 · Nov 22, 2005

I would say you don't take the penalty when fighting with just one of the weapons.

"If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:"

... Blah, blah, it seems like you've read at least part of the PHB when deciding what the rule actually was. Hm. I'd say "wielding" a weapon is different from "carrying" it. If you choose to attack with just one weapon, you're only "carrying" the second weapon, therefore you don't take the penalties.

Edit: ... As Infiniti said right before I did.

I side with Patryn too. Hyp is right too often than is healthy anyway.

Hypersmurf · Nov 23, 2005

Jdvn1 said:
... Blah, blah, it seems like you've read at least part of the PHB when deciding what the rule actually was. Hm. I'd say "wielding" a weapon is different from "carrying" it. If you choose to attack with just one weapon, you're only "carrying" the second weapon, therefore you don't take the penalties.

I agree that "wielding" a weapon is different from "carrying" it.

How do you rule in the case of a character with BAB +6 (and hence two iterative attacks) making only one attack with his longsword, and only one attack (at a lower iterative bonus) with his shortsword, and thus not availing himself of the extra attack that wielding two weapons allows? Does he take TWF penalties, or not?

-Hyp.

Kurotowa · Nov 23, 2005

Instead of debating word usage, I'd say look at equivalent rules. D&D is very big on mechanical balance after all.

Compare Two-Weapon Fighting to Flurry of Blows, or better yet Rapid Shot. All allow you to gain an extra attack at the cost of -2 to all attack that round. The other two allow you to make your normal number of attacks with your normal attack bonus. Thus, it follows that Two-Weapon Fighting works mechanically the same as Rapid Shot and you can decline to both the extra attack and the attack penalty.

Edit: So to answer Hypersmurf's question, by this reasoning yes you could devide your iterative attacks between weapons without penalty. It's a fair trade off for no shield.

pbd · Nov 23, 2005

Do you take the penalty if you are holding something that is not a weapon in your off-hand?

No penalty to hold (and use for that matter) a shield, no penatly to hold a torch, no penalty to hold a second weapon you are not using.

Patryn of Elvenshae · Nov 23, 2005

To clarify my position (since it slightly different from what has been attributed to me

), "when fighting this way" means "when taking advantage of the TWF rules to make more attacks than your BAB allows during a Full Attack action."

In other words, under my position, you may use either weapon without penalty in an AoO - you are, in fact, wielding both weapons so long as you have them to-hand. The penalties so described apply only to those attacks made during your full attack action.

Note that the glossary goes on to state that attacks made with your off-hand (the left for most characters) take a penalty on all attacks made (-4) and only apply .5 of the character's Strength bonus. This, technically, would apply to any attack made with your off-hand weapon whether or not you are "fighting this way." In my games, I ignore this rule (and, more generally, think that the glossary is a silly place to introduce new rules!).

Dimwhit · Nov 23, 2005

Oh my. I agree with Patryn.

Peter Gibbons · Nov 23, 2005

I believe Patryn has it right. Sorry, Hyp.

Patryn of Elvenshae · Nov 23, 2005

Dimwhit said:
Oh my. I agree with Patryn.

Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time.

TWF penalties

D Money1644

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Infiniti2000

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Jdvn1

Hanging in there. Better than the alternative.

Hypersmurf

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Kurotowa

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pbd

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Patryn of Elvenshae

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Dimwhit

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Peter Gibbons

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Patryn of Elvenshae

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