Umbran said:
I tend to think that Charisma is the ability to express your will outwards. Wisdom has to do with impressing your will inwards, on yourself. The Will save is almost always directed inwards - keeping your own will in the face of external pressure.
How impress you are on stage has little to do with how well you can keep yoruself from having that next alcoholic drink, for example.
Well, that's a function of having Charisma double as force of personality and appearance. The same situation exists if Wisdom double as force of personality and common sense.
It's interesting that the SRD decriptions of Wisdom and Charisma are now -
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.
Move the word "willpower" from the Wisdom description to the Charisma and suddenly everything fits very well. Whether the actual case or just how it appears, it seems like the designers of 3E slid over all but that one word when determining that Charisma was meant to play an expanded, more definite role in the game. The problem isn't that one is more apt or
should be the ability score that determines this or that. The problem is that both could arguably be used, given the descriptions, so the separation is not complete. The net effect, unfortunately, is that Charisma continues to be a dumping ground despite apparent efforts to spread things more evenly among the ability scores.
The final question becomes, is there really an interest in addressing the dumping ground issue and are folks willing to make the necessary adjustments, even if they are choices that tamper with traditional views of how ability scores work?
Most will tell you, btw, that impressing people, whether it is on or off a stage, has much to do with personal will, moreso than appearance. Some will say that presence is not a one way street that relies solely on one's looks but (and although it might a seem empathic) it really relies on one's ability to know oneself, one's own persona. Sometimes this can even be subconscious, as in the case of a so-called contagious laugh. One can sway a crowd with words and a smile, to a point, but being a leader requires personal strength of convictions and inner confidence.
I'm not one that feels the Intimidate skill should be tied to Wisdom, though by your measure I guess you might be.
BTW, Your stage versus alcoholic example is poorly chosen, IMO. Alchoholism is a disease. I don't feel there is enough data on it to use it as an example related to simple willpower, one way or another, so I suggest we set it aside in favor of other, more fruitful points of discussion.
